Hawley says election shows deep Upstate and Downstate division

What a great OLD idea. The problem of course, is that New York City has to agree, and they never will. We keep feeding their bad habits, and they could care less. The party in power could care less as well. The only thing we can do is keep moving out until there is no one left upstate to pay their taxes. As long as the political system allows us to try to compete with NYC, we will have no voice. Lets look at it another way. When was the last time any upstate NY folks got to hear a Presidential Candidate? I submit, it's been 34 years. That is because we are irrelevant. We do not vote, so we must not care.

You know, I suspect that an actual, honest, poll of all New Yorkers, from the tip of Longuylan to Niagara Falls would show an overwhelming majority of us want to be separated.

Unfortunately, our betters will never allow such a poll: It would weaken their ability to direct our lives as they see fit. The question is always phrased in a way to offend at least half of the sample and insure a no so they can claim it is an extremist and reactionary idea that must be stamped out.

Design a properly worded poll and start it circulating on social media. Share the URL (create a tiny URL if necessary) and post it in every public place allowable, Ask businesses to post it, etc...

Never underestimate the power of a grassroots effort.

All political rhetoric aside, show the hard facts. Where is the split? Just NYC? The eastern third of NYS? Make the case about financial benefits, just don't say there will be benefits, explain them. I've often vascillated on this. There are times when I felt it would be in our best interest, especially when we had a strong corporate presence in Western and Central NY. Like I said, stop the political grandstanding and give us some facts.

Hard to say where the split should occur--everything south of our PA border (south of Delaware, Greene & Columbia Co) would be a start. Although there might even be a few counties in that group that would choose to remain with Upstate. Maybe a more western divide makes sense (everything west of Herkimer & Otsego Co)??

Just based on the possibility of a revamped Medicaid program it makes financial sense. As our "own" state we can draft our own constitution, representation and laws. We can do away with laws like the current Cadillac Medicaid plan that financially crushes local governments in upstate.

There is already a report out that addresses most of the mandates from Albany (read NYC) that cause most of our tax and economic problems:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQ…

New state can do whatever it wants. Not beholden to old ways or the NYC money that pols downstate use as bait for upstaters to comply with their urban-centric laws.

"our" NYS Assembly is dominated by patronage position members from "THE CITY". Our betters place them on the ballot as democrats and done deal. It's not like anyone in that part of the state would vote for anything not put forward by our betters.

No law shall pass that is not decided upon by gerbils living in an urban anthill so foreign from the rest of the state that it may as well be located on Uranus.

Robert, the question should be "Should upstate and downstate NY be two separate states?"

How it is always phrased is "Given how much upstate costs downstate to support, should upstate and downstate be divided?" or "Given how badly downstate abuses upstate, should upstate and downstate be divided?"

The answer is in the question, and the question is always rigged.

Assemblyman Hawley you made this very same media splash right after the reality of the SAFE Act being ram-rodded thru, set in. You introduced this Bill Jan 9, 2013 -
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A00391&term=&Summary=Y…

In fact I was the one who got word to you [thru a mutual friend JB] that the Buffalo radio talk show host Tom Bauerle was talking about your proposition then, and was offering you air time to discuss it. You made the connection and were on his radio program for a considerable time that day making your case for pursuing this endeavor. Then afterwards there was no more word from you or the local GOP of any such effort. If you had stayed the course from your initial thrust of January 2013, this ballot initiative could have been on the ballot two weeks ago. Now you are again making ‘talking points’ with this proposition, but it’s likely because after the recent election so many other legislators are now saying the same thing.

The Bill you referenced here [A00391A] was introduced by you Jan 9, 2013. Shortly after that in March 2013 and again in March 2014, you voted YES on the NYS Budget, which both years contained Funding for the SAFE Act. So where is your priority Assemblyman Hawley? Do you honor your oath to support the Constitution of the US [which contains the 2nd Amendment], or do you give preference to the pork in the NYS Budget that’s coming to your district?

You won the recent election with 95% of the vote, so obviously you can FOOL most of the people most of the time... but you can’t fool all of us.

Well said Brian.
While I may not necessarily agree with Hawley's position, I do agree with your assertion that he's a grandstander to the nth degree.

While I don't agree with all of the Safe Act, there have been 87 school shootings since Sandy Hook. SOMETHING had to be done. Probably not a dumb ass law that limits handguns to 7 rounds when the magazine holds 10 or whatever, but SOMETHING had to be done. I'm sure you'll agree that sportsmen don't need 100 round drum magazines for assault weapons. Had there been more input from thoughtful Upstate representatives maybe we wouldn't have this CF of a law.

AND....if Hawley is (as he says he is) a staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment, he should have had the cahones to vote against the budget. But he didn't. He just wants to issue press releases to give the impression that he's representing his constituents. What he doesn't count on, is people like you who keep track.

A steadfast defender of anything does not waiver, does not compromise, does not budge...ever.

Assemblyman Hawley's current body of work can be reviewed and tracked at:

http://www.billtrack50.com/LegislatorDetail/3737

606 pieces of legislation in various states of stagnation in the already most legislated, most restrictive, highest cost of government state in the nation!

Yeah, there's a disconnect between WNY and the money sucking area around the Big Apple. Judge for yourself whether or not the 606 additions/changes defend everyone's constitutional rights, rein in state government, reduce the money flow out of WNY, etc...

@ Robert Brown

Our government only works when people compromise, negotiate, budge, and display statesmanship. Your "steadfast" position is better suited for a totalitarian regime. Never changing your mind despite facts, refusing to hear the other side, and being stubborn beyond logic, has never worked in this world...nor will it ever.

To address your (most likely gut feeling) comment about the "money flow out of WNY" and the money "sucking sound in the Big Apple" you have it 100% backwards. Upstate NY is the beneficiary of Billions of dollars of tax revenues and fees collected in NYC and it's surrounding counties, and redistributed up to us. I know that folks think it's the other way around. But it's not. Not by a long shot.

Please read this:

http://www.rockinst.org/observations/wardr/2011-12-giving_getting.aspx

According to a 2010 Rockefeller Institute of Government study "City residents and businesses paid about $4.1 billion more to Albany in taxes and fees than the state returned in spending for education, health care, transit and other services in 2009-10. For the nearby suburban counties (Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland and Westchester), it was $7.9 billion more in taxes than came back in spending"

Where did this $12 Billion go? North and West to Upstate NY. You know....where we live. In addition.....Due to the economic stagnation of upstate, and the financial rebound of both the Stock Market and Financial Industry jobs in NYC, this imbalance is estimated to be 27% greater in OUR favor in 2014 due to Income Tax alone.

As far as Hawley goes...... Putting forth cessation is effectively asking to be Northern Mississippi! We would be instantly one of the poorest states in the Country. You'd solve 3 problems and create 10 new ones. An interesting case study would be to look into the reasons that West Virginia seceded from Virginia during the civil war. Slave ownership, Taxation, national representation, and social/cultural differences. Western counties considered the eastern half of Virginia "uppity" "elitist" "Corporate" and lacking "Independence". Sound familiar? By the way, take a drive through West Virginia today and let me know what you think. Don't slow down. They rank Dead Last in Education, and if you removed Coal Mining, they would rank 47th in economic output. But hey, at least they get a governor...right?

NYC is not the albatross on our back. We are the floundering teenager living in its' house who hates the rules. But on our own...we're screwed. The $15 Billion allowance is gone. THEY would be better off to get rid of US! And to further make our lot worse, many wealthier families living in the "New" New York would immediately leave and head for Westchester, Orange, Rockland, and Putnam County (or another state). For any elected official to come out and say otherwise is foolish and begs of one an onus of reasoning other than bullets in gun chambers and mandate relief. Both of which, would remain issues of contention in the "New" New York. We have problems for sure. I'm not naïve to this fact. But throwing your hands in the air and saying "Screw it, let's just break up" isn't the answer. Unless of course, this is what you are selling to your constituency that doesn't know, and doesn't even know that they don't know.

Lastly, the only "sucking" sound you hear... is the sucking sound of our educated young men and women leaving the area in droves for NYC, Boston, Charlotte, Washington, Chicago, Atlanta, and other big cities. They grow up here, get a college education, and then never come back except for Turkey and X-mas presents. Those pesky educated elites that everyone hates. Well, it turns out they are pretty important. But then again...if they stuck around here, you better believe we'd be talking about other issues than cessation, guns, and blaming the poor. So I guess as we approach Thanksgiving, our local elected officials have that to be thankful for.

Marc, thank you for the thoughtful response. I expected numbers from those who support becoming the new New York, or whatever they want to call it and not just more rhetoric.
You hit the nail on the head, "Unless of course, this is what you are selling to your constituency that doesn't know, and doesn't even know that they don't know."
Thanks again, something to think about.

If what Marc says here is accurate, then downstate should be jumping at the opportunity to "rid itself" of the wayward children of upstate. Bottom line is, that NYS has been run by downstate people and controlled by that downstate mentality for so long that no one could rationally deny that this is responsible for the 'NYS Way'... rule by mandate, the subsequent outrageous increase of state taxes, decline in the manufacturing and jobs base, and the consequent drastic loss of the working age and retirement age populations in New York State.

I've read similar explanations during the past 20-30 years and at first I bought into it. But ya know what, things continued to worsen and finally a thinking person has to stop and say, “what the hell’s going on”. It would be different if upstate leaders were in control, then maybe Marc’s argument would hold water. Many if not most of upstate legislators enter office with the mindset to bring about change and stop the rising taxes, state mandates, jobs erosion, etc., but in short order they learn that they have “no say” in anything except maybe something like suggesting that yogurt become the “state snack”. Oh yea, and to announce who gets the corporate welfare in their district [our tax dollars that the Albany machine agrees to return to one of their crony interests].

This dysfunction has gone on for so long now the people don't even care to try and bring about change. In the recent elections two weeks ago, basically all elected offices in the NYS legislative process were up for vote. Only 32% of the eligible voters in NYS voted, the lowest turnout in NYS history and the worst in the country for 2014. That also was 46% fewer NYS voters than bothered to show up just 2 years ago. So all you who agree with Marc that NYS is being managed in the best interest of the majority of it's residents needs to get the word out to all those who physically haven't left yet, but in their spirit obviously have.

As far as Marc’s contention “but on our own...we're screwed.”, I for one would willingly take my chances. Maybe it would be better phrased “would you rather live in NYC or in the hills of WVa”. I believe that folks live in upstate New York because they don’t want to live in NYC, Atlanta, or Chicago. And they don’t want to be governed and dictated to by someone who lives that lifestyle. Besides I’ll bet the majority of those living in upstate would be much more accepting of the economic burden they endure if they knew it was self driven.

Two New Yorks... bring it on!
I’m just not holding my breath that Assemblyman Hawley is going to get it done.

Overlooked here is that Long Island and Staten Island have also said they want to separate. They feel they have nothing in common with NYC or us.

@Brian Graziaplena

I never said "NYS is being managed in the best interest of the majority of it's residents"
I merely said that splitting up wasn't the answer. And I backed up my reasoning. In fact...I think our State Government is totally corrupt and I disagree with our Governor on many issues, most passionately the GEA that is screwing our schools! But my point is that the answer is not fighting for cessation. The answer is to beat them at their own game. You said yourself that voter turnouts were paltry. If upstate had a 60% voter turnout, we'd have a new governor. Maybe we need to examine our own legislatures. Are they really doing the best for us? Or is it just name recognition, nepotism, and the local political machine who "gives you your choice".

Again...How do you offset the Billions of Dollars that benefit upstate currently? You think NYC magically goes off on their own, and then WE lower taxes, repeal the Safe Act, revert to the Federal guidelines for Medicare, and things are magically fine? That's wishful thinking. Our schools would completely fall off the map, our roads and bridges, county and city governments would flail and be forced into contentious mergers, many services relied upon by seniors, handicapped persons, and poor children would be cut, and the property tax situation would get WORSE not better. Like I said, you'd solve 3 problems and create 10.

Splitting up is great talking points and it gets folks fired up. But it is empty rhetoric and it is never happening. I think the end of your post gets to the real issue you have, and so many others have. You just don't like people who live in cities. Don't like their "way of life" whatever that means. Massachusetts is run by Boston Politics. Illinois is run by Chicago politics, Georgia is run by Atlanta Politics, New York is run by NYC politics. We are not an enigma. This is how it is in most States that have the benefit of having World Class city in them.

No doubt we need mandate relief, we need tax relief, we need economic development, we need livable wages, we need environmental protections for our great lands. However we will only get this through a coordinated movement of citizens who are engaged and really care. I bet we agree on most things, we just disagree on how to go about achieving them. We need much more responsible spending in Albany, and we need to honor pledges we've made to citizens and not to special interest, corporations, and those who make our election possible financially. But I haven't sen any yard signs for Campaign Finance Reform, Higher Minimum Wage, Term limits, Anti-Nepotism in politics, or Ending the tax loopholes for large corporations. I wonder Why?

"Our government only works when people compromise, negotiate, budge, and display statesmanship. Your "steadfast" position is better suited for a totalitarian regime. Never changing your mind despite facts, refusing to hear the other side, and being stubborn beyond logic, has never worked in this world...nor will it ever."

Amen, Marc. And thanks.

Marc,

You really need to stop watching MSNBC. It's for the best, really.

You can quote all the numbers you want, but the reality is that at least 1/4 of the costs of local governments are attributable to NYC, and it's suburb's, pols trying to solve their local problems at the state level.

Add that to the fact that high taxes and over-regulation of businesses leads to the shocking result of there being less of both businesses and tax revenues... Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that we aren't allowed to point out that liberals believe that you can discourage some economic behaviors, but not others, with the same trick: "We have to tax the hell out of cigarettes to reduce demand!!!" / "Increasing taxes on employment, manufacturing and productivity will never, EVER!!!, reduce the occurrence of these things!!! SHUT UP! Reactionary bastard!"

I have met many more people who have fled the anthill than those who have left WNY to go there. Most of the WNY expats I know fled the taxes and laws of the NYC dominated state to reach greener pasture in places that bear no resemblance to the "progressive" capital of the country.

Is it so hard to believe that we are sick and tired of being ruled by the electorate of a city so divorced from our reality that it may as well be on another planet? That polls show that escape to free states is the most common desire of WNY residents? That the frogs are starting to notice that the thermostat is getting turned up?

@Kyle - most of us would be deleted for using that language in a post.

Whoa... "your "steadfast" position is better suited for a totalitarian regime. Never changing your mind despite facts... being stubborn beyond logic, has never worked in this world...nor will it ever."

You folks need a history lesson! If our founders weren't steadfast and stubborn in their demands and unchanging in their pursuit, we wouldn't have this Constitutional opportunity to speak out in open criticism as we do.

I agree with debate and reasonable compromise... but compromise at what cost?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin

And this brings me right back around to the crux of the initial report here. Assemblyman Hawley has long been promoted as a staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment [by himself and by various gun rights groups] and yet he votes for a NYS Budget that includes FUNDING for “2nd Amendment violating gun control” [ie: NYSAFE], and the majority of his constituents [including the gun owners and gun rights organizations like SCOPE and NRA] overwhelmingly vote to return him to Albany???

Your one to talk about who gets deleted about what, after deleting all the original organizers of the Batavia Neighborhood Watch group on Facebook Bea. Hijacking the site from the original 10 that started it. just because you began thinking it was your own personal site....

Brain, you seem to be trying to keep the lie going that Hawley supports the SAFE ACT. That is flat out a lie.

True, he voted for a budget that had also funding in it for the SAFE ACT, after he tried to defeat the ACT itself. He lost that fight and could not stop it from being added to the budget, being in the minority.

But the budget also had things other people wanted, like money for road repair after last winter and aid for the disabled (like ARC), money for the State Prisons and aid for local governments. If he had voted no on the budget because he could not stop the SAFE ACT, some people would say he voted against disabled people or wants to close prisons.

Brian, Hawley was endorsed by the NRA and SCOPE (the local gun rights group). Disagree with Hawley all you want, but stop the lie he supports the SAFE ACT.

@Kyle I never advocated for raising taxes. If you read my second post, I indicated we NEED tax relief. I also don't appreciate being called a reactionary Bastard. FYI... don't watch much MSNBC, mostly Bloomberg during the day in my office and I read a voracious amount of material on both sides of the political spectrum as well. I'm guessing you watch lots of Fox News though. But when you have no facts to back up your position, typically people revert to name calling and inflammatory language. I'm used to debating folks who have little supporting information, but are rarely in doubt.
I take us back to the original article and debate. My point was that you will NEVER fix any of our problems (Taxes, Gun Rights, GEA, Crappy Roads/Bridges, Economic Development, Higher Wages) by creating your own state in upstate NY. You will have the SAME problems and all your work will still be in front of you. Erie, Monroe, Onondaga, and Albany County will hold 76% of the Population of your new State. they are all Heavy Democratic. Instead of Fighting NYC, you will be fighting these large Metropolitan areas and they will consolidate the control of the Gov't. Your $15 Billion in supplemental seed money that "flows upstate" from the Taxes and Fees collected in NYC will be gone. This would destroy our schools, infrastructure, services for seniors, the poor, economic development grants, and force widespread merging of local municipalities, Fire Dept's, Police, and it goes on and on. How do you now pay for these things? get rid of them all? or will you have to Raise taxes on a percentage basis extremely HIGH because we don't have the Property Value or Incomes we'd be losing by cutting out NYC. It's nothing but WishThought. Although you may wish to discard Facts and Numbers, they actually matter, and should be the basis upon which we make decisions.

Your comment " You can quote all the numbers you want, but the reality is that at least 1/4 of the costs of local governments are attributable to NYC, and it's suburb's, pols trying to solve their local problems at the state level" Is patently false. You have nothing to support this claim, in fact...what I offered up to you for digestion was a study done that not only refutes your claim, but proves the exact OPPOSITE. Again, OUR tax money does not go to NYC....THEIR tax money comes to US.

@Brian.....You need the history lesson. Read some books on Lincoln and Jefferson. Compromise and concession is literally dripping off the documents we hold so dear in the country. The US Constitution is actually referred to as A BUNDLE OF COMPROMISES for crying out loud .......due to the fact that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention in 1787 had to compromise on numerous key points in order to create a new Constitution that was acceptable to each of the states. That doesn't sound like "steadfast" nor "Stubborn". I love all the people who hide behind the constitution and have no idea how it was crafted or even what it even says. Like Sarah Palin carrying her copy around for 6 months when she was running for VP, and she was asked in Akron Ohio to name her favorite amendments other than the right to bear arms....she had no idea and rambled on about the USA being a Christian nation. Um...try article 1 Sarah! It's so frustrating to me when folks try to make History FIT their narrative today. Let History speak for itself.

If this is the best argument you all can make for splitting the Sate in 2, I'd hate to see the coherency of the new Government you'd create if you won. I can make a better argument for splitting up NY, and I don't even support it.

John, I could give a rats behind about the NRA or SCOPE any longer. I've seen how much they've done to energize NYS gun owners to rally to the 2nd Amendment fight.

The fact that Assemblyman Hawley voted to provide $30+ Million FUNDING earmarked for the SAFE Act is all I need to know to say he supported it... no lies, it's fact.

I'm out.

So, your theory is that a politician should not vote for a budget if any line item conflicts with their views or their constituents views?

I feel like there won't be many budgets passed under this idea.

Brain, you have the right to lie, but it is still a lie. And to say that SCOPE has not tried to energize gun owners is another lie (you're 2 for 2).

Hey John, do you understand libel? If someone makes a claim and they can support it with documentation that is not lying! If someone says publicly that another person is a liar when in fact they are not, that is libel.

Fact: I reiterate, Assemblyman Hawley voted Yea for Section A8554E Capital Projects section of the 2014-15 NYS Budget which contained FUNDING for the SAFE Act.

Fact: I did not say SCOPE didn't try, rather I implied that they didn't accomplish energizing the gun owners to fight for the 2nd Amendment cause. {Astorino [the anti-SAFE candidate for Governor] got a total of 1.45 million votes. There are 5.5 million gun owners in NYS}

So go ahead and call me a liar some more, and perhaps we can turn this debate into a legal discussion about libel.

Brain, go for it.
Try as you might, Hawley did not and does not support the SAFE ACT. To hint, say or imply otherwise is not true (a lie).

You have to bend, stretch, twist, distort or ignore the truth to imply voting for the budget was the same as supporting that law. So, again, go for it.

John; I’ll put up a $50.00 Tim Horton Gift Certificate with anyone who will match it on Brian’s behalf that Brian will not follow through on his implied threat to sue you for libel; any takers?

". . . any takers?"

I love a good wager, but not those odds.

What if I sweeten the wager and throw in a fruitcake or a hasty pudding.

LOL

Marc,

You premise your argument on an idea which is not even related to the reality of how politics and society works.

The absence of NYC, read: progressive, imperatives in spending and policy would reduce the costs of government across NYS. I would wager more than a Timmy Card that NYS would be fine without our betters in the anthill calling the shots and making sure that their cronies get the appropriate payoffs and benefits.

Oh, and if the politicians and "community organizers" in upstate cities ever actually stop and think about it, they will be the loudest champions for a divorce: Instead waiting in line for the crumbs left over after the anthill is done in Albany, they would be THE line. At some point our brothers and sisters in urban America will realize what has been done to them by our betters and it will not be pretty.

And @ is not a greeting, it is a reference to coding that is appropriate to tweets, but not actual correspondence between equals in a civilized conversation. While I am on the subject of peers conversing, I have to say that I am disappointed that you seem to be blind to the rhetorical flourish of a quote which represents a stereotypic representation of an ideology.

I never called you a bastard, reactionary or otherwise. I implied that a person who argues that taxes effect only certain behaviors, but not others, might call someone who disagreed with them a "reactionary bastard". I would be unsurprised to have that label placed upon me, because I understand that the term's origins are in Marxist philosophy and that it is a badge of honor to those of us that refuse to deny human nature and it's immutability.

Why you think the rhetorical "quote" was aimed at you is a mystery. It seems to indicate that you skimmed my reply without actually reading it. Or, that you actually think that you disagree with the idea that you can both tax something out of existence and tax another thing into flourishing and growing.

"You premise your argument on an idea which is not even related to the reality of how politics and society works."

And so, just what is that premise, Kyle? And what idea, unrelated to the reality of both politics and society? Please explain.

". . . "reactionary b*****d". I would be unsurprised to have that label placed upon me, because I understand that the term's origins are in Marxist philosophy. . ."

Well, no. Sorry again. The term originates during the French revolution, and from that time became part of the political lexicon. From the French word "réactionnaire" -- describing the House of Bourbon's, and the conservative Roman Catholic Church's opposition -- reaction -- to the revolutionary impulses surging throughout France, and Europe, in the late 18th century. Also in America, though the Church (and the Bourbons) were much less invested here.

". . . and that it [reactionary] is a badge of honor to those of us that refuse to deny human nature and it's immutability."

You might want to rethink that.

Scott,

The premise is that those who have power will somehow act in any way other than to increase both that power and their hold on it.

That means we flyover people have to rattle the doors and windows of our betters in their comfortable salons and keep them ever mindful that they do not hold their positions by divine right, but through the consent of the governed and the willingness of their customers to do business with them.

Reactionary is a term taken to heart by the most evil political philosophy of the modern era, Marxism. It is a dismissive way of labeling a person unwilling to cede power and authority over their life to the leadership of the revolution. The reactionary is reacting to the violation of his natural rights and is soon to be re-educated, sent to a labor camp or killed outright by his betters in any country claiming to follow Marxism.

Since the term has been theirs for so long, it belongs to them. When Nancy Pelosi called those who disagree with the democrat over reach that is Obamacare reactionaries, she was not complaining about the Pope or the family of the former French royalty. She was labeling proles as threats to the revolution for daring to challenge socialism and their betters efforts to control them.

"Since the term has been theirs for so long, it belongs to them."

Belongs to whom, my friend? You're almost a full century out of sync.

"When Nancy Pelosi called those who disagree with the democrat over reach that is Obamacare reactionaries, she was not complaining about the Pope or the family of the former French royalty. She was labeling proles as threats to the revolution for daring to challenge socialism and their betters efforts to control them."

Proles as threats to the revolution? Well, I guess that makes sense to someone, in some universe or another.

You're confused; perhaps awash in Fox News truthiness. I'd suggest to you an honest primer in history and political science.

Kyle: "You premise your argument on an idea which is not even related to the reality of how politics and society works."

Scott: "And so, just what is that premise, Kyle? And what idea, unrelated to the reality of both politics and society?"

Kyle: "The premise is that those who have power will somehow act in any way other than to increase both that power and their hold on it."

Of course, it's the nature of power to attempt to sustain itself. As if that's a new thing. As if it's ever been somehow unrelated to political reality. I'm sorry, Kyle, but I don't think you have a grasp of the subject.

Dearest Kyle Slocum,

The @ is widely used among virtually all social media sites as an appropriate way to address a comment to a specific individual. Since we are playing the grammatical police, never start a paragraph with "And". Your flowery language and self anointed patriotism is a little overwhelming. It can sometimes be easy to fool a person with a spiraling rebuttal, but it's often times very hard to fool oneself. Seems as though you have pulled that off though magnificently....so @ Kyle......Congrats!

By the way...if you want to correctly identify who your "Betters" are....don't look to politicians, don't look to Albany, and don't look to Washington. Go to K Street, go to the Lobbyist's, and go to the Big Money that Buys your representative. They have all the power and pull the strings. "And" (stealing one from your book) they have masterfully used the ignorance on the far right to motivate you to vote on issues of the "gut" and issues of "prejudice" while they rob you blind of your piece of the American Dream. It's Gays! It's Guns! It's those atheists! Those Thugs! He's a dictator! Those illegals! He's a Muslim! He's a Kenyan! A Socialist! He's a Traitor! All bullshit issues that flock the sheep to the Polls to vote for more "Fascism", more Corporate Control, stagnant wages, less healthcare, and the sad thing is......you don't see it. Federal Taxes are lower now than they have been in 30 years. But they scream about taxes!! The stock market booms under Democratic Leadership and 10 million jobs created in the past 5 years, but they scream it's the economy! Civil rights are expanded, people are favored over corporations, but they scream he's a dictator! It's really laughable. If a Bear took a crap in your living room and Fox News said it was a Christmas Present, most of you would put it under your tree! (@ Kyle....I can use Humor too)

Lastly, I'm done with this thread. You can have the last rambling incoherent word. It's often best to let folks just hang themselves. However, your entire previous response once again is nothing but OPINION. It's your personal "gut" feeling about NY that is just not routed in reality. I gave you the facts regarding Taxation and who supports who. I do not support high taxes, but it is interesting to note that During the 80''s and 90's we had much higher federal rates on the top end and our country's GDP and growth rate were much higher than they are today! That also is a fact. Your statements about reducing the cost of government without NYC is unsubstantiated. I know it's hard to have someone take your philosophical "Blankey" away from you, but I'd rather be a Giraffe than an Ostrich.