Liberty Pumps implements Employee Ownership Plan

"To give back to employees for their contributions to the ongoing success of Liberty Pumps, President and CEO Charlie Cook announced today that eligible wokers will get a share of the company's profits."

"Historically the company has grown 13 percent yearly and the quantity of shares each employee receives will increase with growth."

4/28/14 on The Batavian: " The company has submitted an application to the GCEDC requesting assistance that includes tax savings of $377,600, a mortgage tax exemption savings of $93,750, and property tax abatement of $863,577 due to the incremental increase in assessed value".

Mr. Cook? Mr. Hyde? Can either of you provide justification for our hard earned personal income being used to help such a vibrant and successful business? Mr. Cook? Can you explain your departure from GCEDC shortly before your request for such an enormous handout?

And We the Sheople allow this year in and year out.....

"Can either of you provide justification for our hard earned personal income being used to help such a vibrant and successful business?"
You're kidding right? I think you would be hard pressed to show that any of your personal income went into this project.

This bashing of businesses trying to stay in NY gets old.

Do you have any idea what a mortgage tax is?
"The mortgage recording tax is an excise tax on the
privilege of recording a mortgage."
source: http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/memos/mortgage/m96_2r.pdf

The sales tax is really just double taxation.
You pay sales tax on the material to build it then you get taxed on it when its built!

I say great job Charlie!

Doug, you are right. There was no direct personal income from anyone that went into this.

Taxes breaks and tax abatements are taxes never collected. Just like a house mortgage that is deducted from income taxes. It's money never paid.

You can make the argument the breaks should not be given, but then the same argument has to be made about any income tax deductions also.

But the main point here is that none of B

ob's persona; money went into this, none.

Another post error

double post

John you said.."Taxes breaks and tax abatements are taxes never collected."

When one group doesn't have to pay property tax but another one does you cause the ones who do pay property tax to bear a greater burden of paying for government.This can and will cause your tax rates to increase over time.So it does cost Bob and all of us to pay more in the form of property taxes over time.

Mark, they are paying property taxes. Just not as much as they would have. And sales tax breaks are the same as when they have a sales tax break on clothes for school. It is money not collected, pure and simple. Did you ever write that you should not have been able to write off your house mortgage? That was money we did not get, so you, Mark, placed a burden on us.

Personally, I want a flat tax, but that is another subject. The main point here was that nobody paid any of their personal money for this. It was money never collected.

And again, the argument against tax breaks of any kind can be made, but that was not the point of what Bob said.

Mark, they are paying property taxes. Just not as much as they would have. And sales tax breaks are the same as when they have a sales tax break on clothes for school. It is money not collected, pure and simple. Did you ever write that you should not have been able to write off your house mortgage? That was money we did not get, so you, Mark, placed a burden on us.

Personally, I want a flat tax, but that is another subject. The main point here was that nobody paid any of their personal money for this. It was money never collected.

And again, the argument against tax breaks of any kind can be made, but that was not the point of what Bob said.

Doug.
You wrote, " I think you would be hard pressed to show that any of your personal income went into this project."
YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT, DOUG?

Every taxpayer in Genesee County has part of their "personal income" in that project. Did they physically put their hands in their wallets and/or purses and hand over cash? Of course not. That money came out of their TAXES.
Now, you can, I suppose, claim that sales tax on materials, or mortgage taxes, NOT being paid by Company A , are not coming out of taxpayers monies. But, when you realize that it takes X-amount to run the county, ANY and ALL taxes NOT being charged just ADDS to the individual's personal tax bill.
PLUS (and try not to forget this), on top of giving Company A, B or C the option of not paying those taxes, every taxpayer must pay the salaries and bonuses of the UNELECTED members of the IDA's and EDC's that decide who's worthy of getting tax breaks, and who isn't.
So, the people that own a restaurant, gas station or toy store don't 'qualify' for breaks on their taxes. You know, the people that are scraping by from week-to-week to put food on their tables. The guy that makes $10, $12 or $16 an hour has to pay sales taxes on pretty much everything he/she uses, from the light bulbs for their homes, to the vehicle they NEED to get to their job, to the recycled paper needed to wipe their asses. How about giving THOSE people a tax break? Well, no, we can't have THAT. Why, if we did that, then Steve Hyde couldn't get his half-million $$.
BS
If Liberty Pumps, or p.w.minor, or company's A, B or C need relief from their tax burden, well, that's just fine & dandy. Screw the little people that are trying to just make ends meet. Who really cares if they can't afford new clothes for their kids. They can just shop at the SA Boutique, or wear their older sibling's hand-me-downs. If THOSE people wanted to be able to afford NEW stuff, it's ON THEM to go out and find a job earning more. It's THEIR fault that THEY didn't become the head of a GCEDC. SHAME ON THEM!!!

Again, B.S.!!!

Ed, do you support ending the income tax exemption for property and school taxes and ending the home mortgage tax deduction?

Reply to #10
As I sometimes get carried away, I can understand how some might not 'get' what I'm saying.

If you're giving tax breaks, forgiveness or total elimination, to one, then everyone should be eligible for said breaks.

ie. If ANY privately-owned entity (like Liberty Pump, Minor's, etc.) don't have to pay sales tax on materials, or mortgage tax, they use for the betterment of their company, then I don't think places like Barretts Marine, or the Pok-A-Dot, or whatever, should be forced to pay such taxes on materials, mortgages for their improvement/expansion.

Why would you give a multi-million (billion $$?) company like Dick's a break, and not the 'little guys'? Afterall, the 'BIG' places can (probably) better afford their taxes (or obtain loans for said taxes), as opposed to some small company that might only be netting a thousand dollars/week
Face it. It 'hurts' O'Lacy's, or Barretts, percentage wise, as much, and maybe more, to afford needed materials, than it does a Walmart or Dick's. (maybe not 'percentage' wise, but I think you know what I mean)

Ed, are you saying pick who gets tax breaks? If you take a deduction on your federal taxes for a mortgage or property taxes, you are the same as Liberty Pumps. It is just a matter of scale. How big or small you are, or how much you make, should make no difference. If you think you deserve any break or deduction then so do they.

"If you take a deduction on your federal taxes for a mortgage or property taxes, you are the same as Liberty Pumps."

Good point. I never thought of it that way.

There are a lot of people who think the home mortgage deduction should be eliminated. It's a deduction that favors the rich, does nothing to encourage home ownership and costs taxpayers $70 billion a year. Renters help subsidize it, but receive no benefit from it. Talk about the government picking winners and losers ...

John. On the mortgage deduction. It is open to all which makes it fair .
Tax abatements are only handed out to a chosen few,who go in front of an unelected IDA board.

Mark, not everyone can take it, so it not fair.

But that is part of the problem. Your tax break is good, the other guy's break is bad.

Actually, as John pointed out, and as I mentioned, not everybody gets a mortgage deduction. Renters don't get a mortgage deduction.

While there are qualifications to meet, every business Genesee County is eligible to apply for some sort of assistance, if not through the GCEDC (which has qualifications much smaller businesses can't meet) then the BDC (which small businesses can qualify for). It's a system at least as equitable and democratic as the home mortgage deduction.

Reply to Doug's #2 comment: I am in no way bashing ANY business in NY! I am, however, questioning the need for corporate welfare for successful businesses. Liberty Pumps builds a good product (I am intimately familiar with their pumps having previously sold them for a wholesaler) and they are a vital employer in our community.. I don't even fault Mr. Cook for trying to get all he can to help build his business. I DO question his relationship with GCEDC (AKA Hyde's Harem) and the resulting tax "incentives". And yes, to Ed's point we DO pay for it out of pocket due to a healthy company paying less than required by law due to a ridiculous NY policy of pick and choose beneficiaries of tax breaks. The answer is to lower ALL taxes - both personal and business. We spend so much more and receive so much less than other states!

More simply put, a family of 4 makes 23K through no fault of their own. Of COURSE they need and deserve our help!. But their income increases 13% a year. Year after year. How long do the rest of us well meaning folks support them? At what point is the help not needed or even appropriate?

For those that voted thumbs down on my original post, I invite you to reply with your reason(s). I disagree with Doug, but at least he tried to explain his viewpoint.

Bob, your comments about the owner and the GCEDC is valid. But using yor example of the family of 4, say they get personal tax deductions for say, 2 kids and get to deduct a house mortgage . They go from your $23k in a few years to $90k. Should the rest of still carry them? At what point is our help not needed or appropriate?

.

Renters do benefit from the mortgage deduction. If it ends then rents will be increased to offset.

Different laws apply, which makes the standard mortgage deduction irrelevant.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/06/rentalowner.asp

@ j. Roaches's comment #18.

John, I didn't make my point clear enough. I apologize.

You hit the nail on the head! At what point does taxpayers' responsibilities end? I assert that although Liberty/Minor/Patel's businesses or the "Smith's" family no longer need or deserve the public's support?

When they are self supporting and even thriving!!

Simple solution: Bring NY personal and business taxes in line with other (and more prosperous) states. Stop corporate bailouts and "tax incentives". Revamp the NY personal income tax abuses. Call our various "fees" what they are! Taxes! Eliminate the I90 tolls that serve to support the canal users. Stop imagining that throwing money at under performing schools will fix the problems of irresponsible parents and our beloved tenure for under performing teachers. Remark the "poverty level to what it truly is - big screens, cell phones etc. I take a drug test in order to work. Require the same of those that apply for assistance.

Etc, etc, etc.

I look at as simply being fair. To everybody!. Corporations. To small busineses.

And bottom line, to you and I.

I look forward to your rebuttal.

Bob, what would need to be rebutted? I think the flat tax and the end of deductions would get us to where you want best.

Very selfish question about the "flat tax". I equate that with "consumption tax".

I'm 60 years old. I have paid every tax imaginable for most of those years. So if I have to pay additional taxes with everything I buy with my investments for which have already been taxed, where is the equity (fairness)?

An income tax is a dissentive to earn.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/does-income-taxation-create-disincentives…

A consumption tax would encourage more saving and investment as well as operate as a graduated tax on higher earners (who buy bigger, more expensive items and at a more frequent rate).

As for "Bring NY personal and business taxes in line with other (and more prosperous) states."

There isn't a state in the union that doesn't offer financial incentives to businesses to relocate, expand, open, invest, etc. So it's rather contradictory to argue we shouldn't have IDAs and say we should be like other states. The main argument in favor IDAs is to remain competitive with the incentives offered by competitive states.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/monday-map-state-tax-incentives-business

Even Nevada, with no corporate tax, as you'll see on the map, offers numerous abatements.

http://www.diversifynevada.com/programs-resources/incentives

You're never going to live in a world without state-sponsored tax abatements for businesses. It's how states compete with each other for business investment. It's the one controllable thing they have to sell.

Even if we had the perfect libertarian taxation scheme (whatever ideal you care to list), tax abatements for business would still be an economic necessity. Either that, or give up the idea of competing with other states for businesses and just let your state's economy stagnate.

Flat tax takes the place of the income tax we have now. One rate only. No deductions. Everyone pays the same rate. Tax on all income

Further,

In this list, Texas ranks first in economic performance and NY is #34

http://www.alec.org/publications/rich-states-poor-states/

Here are the tax incentive and grant programs for businesses in Texas

http://gov.texas.gov/ecodev/edt_incentives

So, you want to do away with IDAs, and have New York, with no tax incentives, compete against Texas, which offers numerous tax incentives to businesses willing to locate and expand there?

How about North Carolina ... everybody around here is always talking about how wonderful North Carolina is. A lot of Yankees relocate there, and no wonder, the NC government is very generous to business.

http://www.thrivenc.com/incentives/financial/tax-credits

Perhaps you would be happier if the Cooks relocated their business to Raliegh? I'm sure Gov. Pat McCrory would love to have a company like Liberty Pumps in his home state. (I'm sure Charlie Cook would never do that, because he loves Bergen ... I'm sure he's had the opportunity over the years ... but businesses have and do relocate when they get the incentives to do so).

Such a defeatist attitude, Howard! "Everybody else does it" so we must too.

Have you completely lost sight of the innovative ideas that once made competition among states for business growth an incentive rather than a mentality of "less bad"?

A bare minimum of taxation on businesses and individuals is the key - rather than the lets take them for every penny we can attitude that exist in ALL levels of government today.

Why would Cook even think about relocating his business with the growth Liberty is enjoying? Must we bribe him with incentives not available to all?

Pay others and have others pay you in cash. Utilize two for one coupons and buy a Brita filter instead of drinking carcinogenic bottled water. Go back to a landline instead of a cancer causing cell phone and ride a bike sometimes. It will offset the taxes you are forced to pay and your ass will only be two feet wide instead of three.

Additional free advice: Drink better beer than Bud or Miller's

Nothing defeatist about it. Just reality. I like truth. Facts. Reality. Fantasy, especially in business, blows. There's no point in chasing unicorns. Fantasy isn't going to bring economic prosperity to Genesee County. Success only comes from maximizing the system as it exists now. It will take a generation or more to change the political climate to a more libertarian state. In the meantime, we need jobs and economic growth now. Whether it's football, basketball, baseball or business, you win by playing the rules as they exist, not by how you wish they would be.

"Success only comes from maximizing the system as it exists now"

Dig in folks. Howard says we must put up with the status quo. It's gonna be a long ride since We the Sheople are no longer capable of bringing about change.

That's right folks. Settle for what you are handed by our benevolent government. Accept no movement toward change. And certainly make sure you don't voice anything other than your support for the status quo. Otherwise you might be esoterically reprimanded by the "editor" of an objective news outlet.

Ahem. Cough. Cough.

Business first, people last, those are the rules.

Double post without hitting save!!!!!

Frank, I counted 3 like posts- that would be a triple post:)

Bob, nobody is being reprimanded. I'm just expressing an opinion in the comments, which is what comments are designed to accommodate, like everybody else.

Also, you've been reading the site long enough to know we've never claimed to be objective. Objective news is a myth. It exists nowhere on this planet. We're honest, truthful and accurate. That's all you can ask of a news outlet and all you can expect.

And unlike you did with your comment, I don't mischaracterize what people say. Typical, though, of those who can't argue the facts, they go for character assassination. Since my job is about facts and truth, that's all I'm trying to bring to the conversation. I provided facts and cited my sources. Instead of attacking me, why not come up with a cogent counter argument?

Frank, business is people. Businesses are owned by people and employ people. Without business, all of our lives would be pretty miserable and short.