I vaccinated all my kids. I get why it is desirable that a high percentage of kids get vaccinated. But i don't want a government with the power to intrude on, undermine, and circumvent the will of parents. Imagine how such a power will be misused. Parental rights has to be more sacred than herd immunity.
This whole anti-vaxers movement is the result of one bogus, made up story, and a boatload of foolish chicken littles. The doctor who produced the study has lost his license, and hiss study has never been able to be replicated.
Have you ever heard Jenny McCarthy speak about her kid's "autism"? First, I don't believe he's ever been properly diagnosed with autism. Second, she says he started acting differently after getting a vaccination (correlation is NOT causation), and that she "cured" him with diet. I don't think you'll find many doctors (well, at least not respected ones) who will propose curing autism with diet...
If your kids go to public school, they should be vaccinated barring any real medical reason otherwise, such as bein allergic to the vaccine. The government has the right to demand that.
"The government has the right to demand that" really? Are you going to say that when your government won't let your new born go home until a micro-chip has been implanted? They could say they are doing this to protect your child in case of kidnapping/ child becomes lost. You do know the tech. is out there, your government will then be able to track every breath your child takes.
How about?.... If we can save one child blah blah......
Does your government have the right to do that?
The only reason you think the government has the right to demand vaccinations is because you also agree that it has the right to demand you send your children to government school. I reject both. I do believe that both vaccinations and education are good things, I take issue with government demanding anything of or from me or anyone else. I think Matthew got it right above.
Six of the children who got the measles at Disneyland were too young to have the vaccination yet. I think parental rights are important. I also think I shouldn't have to worry about taking my child out in public because he or she isn't old enough for a vaccine and can get exposed to a disease by someone who chose not to be vaccinated. Those parents have rights, too. They shouldn't have to keep their kids locked inside because non-vaccinated children are in the neighborhood park or the happiest place on earth.
Then again, I don't actually have kids yet; I'm just hoping the anti-vaccination movement has disappeared by the time I do.
The way to solve the vaccination issue isn't through government intervention and mandate. It's through making it socially unacceptable to skip vaccination, to make the anti-vax propaganda understandable as the unscientific idiocy that it is.
"to make the anti-vax propaganda understandable as the unscientific idiocy that it is."
Optimist. It's not an uncommon belief among these conspiracy theory types that The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is a front dedicated to genocide through vaccination. I've been following the anti-vax movement for years, and these are people who're impervious to fact or reason. By the way, anti-vaxxers will tell you the Disneyland outbreak is being caused by the vaccine itself. As well, it wasn't vaccines that conquered smallpox and polio; they'll tell you those viruses were played out anyway, and improved hygiene finished them off.
Immunisation was required when I was in school. I think it should remain so. I hated getting shots, but I'm old enough to remember the greater terror I felt when the kid who lived behind me was diagnosed with polio. He survived, but afterwards was left barely able to turn or lift his head.
Some, like the infamous Stephanie Messenger, actively promote disease:
Exactly, Howard. You can recognize the graduates of Google U when they challenge peer-reviewed and established science declaring, "I've done my research, and. . .", and crazy follows.
By the way, germ theory has never been proven, that's why they only call it a theory, and Pasteur actually recanted on his deathbed.
James Randi calls it pseudoscience; or a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method. Practitioners of pseudoscience can convince anyone, who is willing to subscribe to their theory,of anything. Case in point: A friend's wife recently became an Ava Anderson sales rep. Those of you who are not familiar with Ava Anderson products, their marketing strategy is to spread fear mongering propaganda clinging to pseudoscience research, which has been proven time and again to be flawed. One of their biggest spreads deals with aluminum. Their claim, based on a flawed theory, is aluminum is the direct cause of Alzheimer's, a theory that even the World Health Organization doesn't accept. Anyway, a neighbor of ours was convinced by this claim, and began tossing all of her aluminum pots and pans, and foil.
Dave, what right do you, or any parent who hasn't had their children vaccinated, to decide to expose someone else's child to the possibility of exposure to any disease that could be prevented?
Vaccines don't prevent anyone from getting sick, first of all. They raise your immunity perhaps 20%-30%. Now that is significant, but it is not a bulletproof vest. Vaccines succeed because the germ they target has more trouble spreading quickly in a community. In essence, making the herd harder to infect will eventually result in a marginalized or extinct germ. YOU ARE NOT IMMUNE BECAUSE YOU GOT A VACCINE!
I chose to vaccinate my kids after looking at the obituary pages of the New York Times from the 1890's. We are better off in a "herd" where the vast majority are vaccinated. And the vast majority are vaccinated. If you want to know where the real germ threat is it is illegal immigration over our southern border.
"Their claim, based on a flawed theory, is aluminum is the direct cause of Alzheimer's, a theory that even the World Health Organization doesn't accept. "
Now that the mercury-autism link has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked, the antivax element has moved on to claim a aluminum-autism (and God knows what else) link. Trace amounts of aluminium hydroxide are added to some vaccines as adjuvants. People like this forget, or never learned, that two very volatile and poisonous elements -- sodium and chlorine -- in combination become NaCl -- table salt.
There's another element at work in the psychology of antivaxxers, what's called the Dunning–Kruger effect, the fallacy that competence in one field of endeavor lends one competence in any other field at hand. These people are especially dangerous, because reputations lend them authority that might not be deserved. Probably the best example of this is the brilliant Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling, who became a champion of vitamin C therapy for everything from the common cold, to mega-doses as a cure for cancer. As Charles Darwin observed, "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
95% immunity from all three strains when a person has the proper shots.
I don't knew where you got your 20-30% figure from, unless it was from a bad flu year. Flu vaccines are less effective due to there being so many strains and the vaccine makers having to make a guess on what strains to protect against.
"Vaccines don't prevent anyone from getting sick, first of all. [. . .] Vaccines succeed because the germ they target has more trouble spreading quickly in a community. In essence, making the herd harder to infect will eventually result in a marginalized or extinct germ."
Um, no. Vaccines don't succeed because of slow germs. Vaccines work because antigens introduced into the body cause it to react by developing antibodies to specific infectious agents. Those developed antibodies are what gives an individual immunity to that particular pathogen. No vaccine will ever succeed in protecting every individual, and not every individual can be vaccinated -- e.g. Immunosuppressed individuals, and often children under a certain age. These individuals rely on herd immunity for protection, which is the circumstance that comes into play when an overwhelming majority of a population is vaccinated, making it very hard for the 'germ' to find the otherwise unprotected, unvaccinated individual.
" If you want to know where the real germ threat is. . ."
The real threat is that herd immunity has been seriously compromised. Too many people, badly informed, aren't vaccinating their precious little snowflakes. And we're seeing the result in the Disneyland outbreak.
Richard, I believe as Matthew stated in his first comment that allowing government to dictate what vaccines and when is a slippery slope. Its immaterial if its agood thing or not. And I already stated that vaccinations are good things, for the most part. I would rather have the info be available and then decide.
Immunosuppressed individuals, and often children under a certain age. These individuals rely on herd immunity for protection, which is the circumstance that comes into play when an overwhelming majority of a population is vaccinated, making it very hard for the 'germ' to find the otherwise unprotected, unvaccinated individual.
Thank you, Scott. I am one of those immunosuppressed individuals who cannot receive the flu shot. I cannot be vaccinated against small pox. The fact that I have to rely on herd immunity used to be the safety net. Today, not so much. I can't imagine anyone not opting for immunization.
I guess the comment, "Let the stupid die of formerly dead diseases, doesn't bother me in the least. No one should shed a tear when someone dies of their own stupidity." not only applies to children too young to be immunized but to anyone who, through no fault of their own, is immunosuppressed.
"allowing government to dictate what vaccines and when is a slippery slope"
The government dictates nothing. No one is forced to vaccinate (witness the California outbreak). Exemption pathways (too many) abound. The CDC, affiliated with research institutions here, and throughout the world, makes recommendations. Other institutions, public and private, mandate on these recommendations as they see fit.
"Its immaterial if its agood thing or not".
Well, . . . Nevermind.
"I would rather have the info be available and then decide."
It's all out there. Science doesn't keep secrets, it can't work that way and be science. The first objective is having discernment in separating the wheat from the chaff.
Scott. You wrote, "The government dictates nothing. No one is forced to vaccinate".
Unless things have changed (and, they may very well have), when you go into the armed forces, you don't (or, didn't) have the option of saying, "Uh, no thanks. I'll pass on those shots".
Tim and Jason,
I stand corrected! When the full course of vaccines is compete, It is not uncommon for idividual effectiveness rates to exceed 90%. Now since few disease will infect 100% of people exposed, measuring effectivness is inexact. Of course flu vaccines effectiveness is a crap shoot.
I wonder though, how trustworthy the CDC really is as a source. Vaccine production and distribution isn't exactly a private enterprise anymore. The government isn't an objective observer anymore.
I appreciate the chance to learn more so thank you. But i still stand with everyone who says free men and women cannot be forced to submit their children for a government sanctioned list of vaccinations any more than they can force attendance at government schools. We are still free.
This is a big one, so I’m going to have to break it down.
a) Kids with autism have overwhelmingly spent time in car seats.
Every single child I know who has autism spent time in car seats, most of them for many hours EVERY WEEK. Think about how many hours of toxic chemicals that adds up to by the time the child is 18 months old, when signs of autism first tend to show up.
b) Car seats trigger autism in otherwise healthy children.
A friend of mine turned her son’s car seat around, no doubt releasing dangerous chemicals in the air, and later that day noticed signs of autism. Before she turned the seat around, he was completely normal. Her son got diagnosed within a few months. If only she had never agitated those chemicals, or better yet, never let her son sit in a car seat at all, he could have lived a neurotypical life.
c) The Amish don’t use car seats and don’t have Autism.
d) As seat belt usage has increased, so has autism."
This has got to be the most funniest pseudoscience theory I've read on autism in 15 years.
My ex-wife's youngest son was diagnosed with autism by age 4, and as such I did quite a lot of research, from reliable sources mind you, on autism as I was ignorant of the disorder. But thing I learned then, which is still true today, is the medical community does not have, nor are they any closer to having, the one and only exact cause of autism. One thing I am quite certain; however, is autism is not caused by turning a child's car seat around.
But, I would like to know how a lay person would even know what the signs of autism are without educating themselves about autism?
The Amish, for the most part, do not ride in cars or vans, they use horse and buggy transportation. However, when they do hire an English to drive them to another state, or even across the state, they do use seat belts. I know several people in the southern tier who drive Amish to Ohio and Indiana from time to time.
Under her Fear Mongering paragraph, she states that in 2012, there were 25,580 deaths in car crashes. In the next paragraph, she states that 122 people died from using seat belts in that same year. The number 25,580 is a hyperlink to statisticbrain.com that has a break down of fatal car crashes by year. According to her source, statisticbrain.com, the number of people killed in car crashes, for 2012, is listed at 33,561. She not only contradicts herself, but her own linked source to back up her pseudo scientific conclusions, that seat belts cause autism, and kill people.
I vaccinated all my kids. I
I vaccinated all my kids. I get why it is desirable that a high percentage of kids get vaccinated. But i don't want a government with the power to intrude on, undermine, and circumvent the will of parents. Imagine how such a power will be misused. Parental rights has to be more sacred than herd immunity.
This whole anti-vaxers
This whole anti-vaxers movement is the result of one bogus, made up story, and a boatload of foolish chicken littles. The doctor who produced the study has lost his license, and hiss study has never been able to be replicated.
Have you ever heard Jenny McCarthy speak about her kid's "autism"? First, I don't believe he's ever been properly diagnosed with autism. Second, she says he started acting differently after getting a vaccination (correlation is NOT causation), and that she "cured" him with diet. I don't think you'll find many doctors (well, at least not respected ones) who will propose curing autism with diet...
If your kids go to public school, they should be vaccinated barring any real medical reason otherwise, such as bein allergic to the vaccine. The government has the right to demand that.
"The government has the right
"The government has the right to demand that" really? Are you going to say that when your government won't let your new born go home until a micro-chip has been implanted? They could say they are doing this to protect your child in case of kidnapping/ child becomes lost. You do know the tech. is out there, your government will then be able to track every breath your child takes.
How about?.... If we can save one child blah blah......
Does your government have the right to do that?
The only reason you think the
The only reason you think the government has the right to demand vaccinations is because you also agree that it has the right to demand you send your children to government school. I reject both. I do believe that both vaccinations and education are good things, I take issue with government demanding anything of or from me or anyone else. I think Matthew got it right above.
Six of the children who got
Six of the children who got the measles at Disneyland were too young to have the vaccination yet. I think parental rights are important. I also think I shouldn't have to worry about taking my child out in public because he or she isn't old enough for a vaccine and can get exposed to a disease by someone who chose not to be vaccinated. Those parents have rights, too. They shouldn't have to keep their kids locked inside because non-vaccinated children are in the neighborhood park or the happiest place on earth.
Then again, I don't actually have kids yet; I'm just hoping the anti-vaccination movement has disappeared by the time I do.
So, I suppose there'd be
So, I suppose there'd be widespread condemnation here of the forced quarantine of Mary Mallon? (Typhoid Mary)
The way to solve the
The way to solve the vaccination issue isn't through government intervention and mandate. It's through making it socially unacceptable to skip vaccination, to make the anti-vax propaganda understandable as the unscientific idiocy that it is.
"to make the anti-vax
"to make the anti-vax propaganda understandable as the unscientific idiocy that it is."
Optimist. It's not an uncommon belief among these conspiracy theory types that The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is a front dedicated to genocide through vaccination. I've been following the anti-vax movement for years, and these are people who're impervious to fact or reason. By the way, anti-vaxxers will tell you the Disneyland outbreak is being caused by the vaccine itself. As well, it wasn't vaccines that conquered smallpox and polio; they'll tell you those viruses were played out anyway, and improved hygiene finished them off.
Immunisation was required when I was in school. I think it should remain so. I hated getting shots, but I'm old enough to remember the greater terror I felt when the kid who lived behind me was diagnosed with polio. He survived, but afterwards was left barely able to turn or lift his head.
Some, like the infamous Stephanie Messenger, actively promote disease:
http://www.amazon.com/Melanies-Marvelous-Measles-Stephanie-Messenger/dp…
School Taxes - charge the
School Taxes - charge the users of the service, parents.
Government Schools - can demand what they want out of those who want the service
Vaccines - should be demanded of those that want to attend a government school
Let the stupid die of formerly dead diseases, doesn't bother me in the least. No one should shed a tear when someone dies of their own stupidity.
"Let the stupid die of
"Let the stupid die of formerly dead diseases, doesn't bother me in the least. No one should shed a tear when someone dies of their own stupidity."
Good for you! A significant number of the individuals who have contracted measles in the Disneyland outbreak were too young to receive the vaccine.
How's that for stupid?
A link that is relevant, and
A link that is relevant, and brilliant.
http://persephonemagazine.com/2014/04/i-will-not-follow-the-herd/
Exactly, Howard. You can
Exactly, Howard. You can recognize the graduates of Google U when they challenge peer-reviewed and established science declaring, "I've done my research, and. . .", and crazy follows.
By the way, germ theory has never been proven, that's why they only call it a theory, and Pasteur actually recanted on his deathbed.
James Randi calls it
James Randi calls it pseudoscience; or a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method. Practitioners of pseudoscience can convince anyone, who is willing to subscribe to their theory,of anything. Case in point: A friend's wife recently became an Ava Anderson sales rep. Those of you who are not familiar with Ava Anderson products, their marketing strategy is to spread fear mongering propaganda clinging to pseudoscience research, which has been proven time and again to be flawed. One of their biggest spreads deals with aluminum. Their claim, based on a flawed theory, is aluminum is the direct cause of Alzheimer's, a theory that even the World Health Organization doesn't accept. Anyway, a neighbor of ours was convinced by this claim, and began tossing all of her aluminum pots and pans, and foil.
Dave, what right do you, or any parent who hasn't had their children vaccinated, to decide to expose someone else's child to the possibility of exposure to any disease that could be prevented?
Vaccines don't prevent anyone
Vaccines don't prevent anyone from getting sick, first of all. They raise your immunity perhaps 20%-30%. Now that is significant, but it is not a bulletproof vest. Vaccines succeed because the germ they target has more trouble spreading quickly in a community. In essence, making the herd harder to infect will eventually result in a marginalized or extinct germ. YOU ARE NOT IMMUNE BECAUSE YOU GOT A VACCINE!
I chose to vaccinate my kids after looking at the obituary pages of the New York Times from the 1890's. We are better off in a "herd" where the vast majority are vaccinated. And the vast majority are vaccinated. If you want to know where the real germ threat is it is illegal immigration over our southern border.
Matthew - care to share any
Matthew - care to share any evidence that backs up your claims?
"Their claim, based on a
"Their claim, based on a flawed theory, is aluminum is the direct cause of Alzheimer's, a theory that even the World Health Organization doesn't accept. "
Now that the mercury-autism link has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked, the antivax element has moved on to claim a aluminum-autism (and God knows what else) link. Trace amounts of aluminium hydroxide are added to some vaccines as adjuvants. People like this forget, or never learned, that two very volatile and poisonous elements -- sodium and chlorine -- in combination become NaCl -- table salt.
There's another element at work in the psychology of antivaxxers, what's called the Dunning–Kruger effect, the fallacy that competence in one field of endeavor lends one competence in any other field at hand. These people are especially dangerous, because reputations lend them authority that might not be deserved. Probably the best example of this is the brilliant Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling, who became a champion of vitamin C therapy for everything from the common cold, to mega-doses as a cure for cancer. As Charles Darwin observed, "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Mathew - check out the CDC on
Mathew - check out the CDC on the measles vaccine:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/faqs-dis-vac-risks.htm
95% immunity from all three strains when a person has the proper shots.
I don't knew where you got your 20-30% figure from, unless it was from a bad flu year. Flu vaccines are less effective due to there being so many strains and the vaccine makers having to make a guess on what strains to protect against.
A story not as humorous as
A story not as humorous as Howards...
http://www.salon.com/2015/01/26/the_disneyland_outbreak_is_the_anti_vax…
"Vaccines don't prevent
"Vaccines don't prevent anyone from getting sick, first of all. [. . .] Vaccines succeed because the germ they target has more trouble spreading quickly in a community. In essence, making the herd harder to infect will eventually result in a marginalized or extinct germ."
Um, no. Vaccines don't succeed because of slow germs. Vaccines work because antigens introduced into the body cause it to react by developing antibodies to specific infectious agents. Those developed antibodies are what gives an individual immunity to that particular pathogen. No vaccine will ever succeed in protecting every individual, and not every individual can be vaccinated -- e.g. Immunosuppressed individuals, and often children under a certain age. These individuals rely on herd immunity for protection, which is the circumstance that comes into play when an overwhelming majority of a population is vaccinated, making it very hard for the 'germ' to find the otherwise unprotected, unvaccinated individual.
" If you want to know where the real germ threat is. . ."
The real threat is that herd immunity has been seriously compromised. Too many people, badly informed, aren't vaccinating their precious little snowflakes. And we're seeing the result in the Disneyland outbreak.
Richard, I believe as Matthew
Richard, I believe as Matthew stated in his first comment that allowing government to dictate what vaccines and when is a slippery slope. Its immaterial if its agood thing or not. And I already stated that vaccinations are good things, for the most part. I would rather have the info be available and then decide.
Immunosuppressed individuals,
Immunosuppressed individuals, and often children under a certain age. These individuals rely on herd immunity for protection, which is the circumstance that comes into play when an overwhelming majority of a population is vaccinated, making it very hard for the 'germ' to find the otherwise unprotected, unvaccinated individual.
Thank you, Scott. I am one of those immunosuppressed individuals who cannot receive the flu shot. I cannot be vaccinated against small pox. The fact that I have to rely on herd immunity used to be the safety net. Today, not so much. I can't imagine anyone not opting for immunization.
I guess the comment, "Let the stupid die of formerly dead diseases, doesn't bother me in the least. No one should shed a tear when someone dies of their own stupidity." not only applies to children too young to be immunized but to anyone who, through no fault of their own, is immunosuppressed.
"allowing government to
"allowing government to dictate what vaccines and when is a slippery slope"
The government dictates nothing. No one is forced to vaccinate (witness the California outbreak). Exemption pathways (too many) abound. The CDC, affiliated with research institutions here, and throughout the world, makes recommendations. Other institutions, public and private, mandate on these recommendations as they see fit.
"Its immaterial if its agood thing or not".
Well, . . . Nevermind.
"I would rather have the info be available and then decide."
It's all out there. Science doesn't keep secrets, it can't work that way and be science. The first objective is having discernment in separating the wheat from the chaff.
Scott. You wrote, "The
Scott. You wrote, "The government dictates nothing. No one is forced to vaccinate".
Unless things have changed (and, they may very well have), when you go into the armed forces, you don't (or, didn't) have the option of saying, "Uh, no thanks. I'll pass on those shots".
You got them, no matter what you WANTED.
"You got them, no matter what
"You got them, no matter what you WANTED."
I know that's true, Ed. Soldiers give up some of their rights to defend ours.
Tim and Jason, I stand
Tim and Jason,
I stand corrected! When the full course of vaccines is compete, It is not uncommon for idividual effectiveness rates to exceed 90%. Now since few disease will infect 100% of people exposed, measuring effectivness is inexact. Of course flu vaccines effectiveness is a crap shoot.
I wonder though, how trustworthy the CDC really is as a source. Vaccine production and distribution isn't exactly a private enterprise anymore. The government isn't an objective observer anymore.
I appreciate the chance to learn more so thank you. But i still stand with everyone who says free men and women cannot be forced to submit their children for a government sanctioned list of vaccinations any more than they can force attendance at government schools. We are still free.
For some silly reason I KNEW
For some silly reason I KNEW somebody would pipe up "but can you trust the CDC?" Sheesh
LOL Tim Miller!
LOL Tim Miller!
This is from Howard's link in
This is from Howard's link in his post #12:
"Autism
This is a big one, so I’m going to have to break it down.
a) Kids with autism have overwhelmingly spent time in car seats.
Every single child I know who has autism spent time in car seats, most of them for many hours EVERY WEEK. Think about how many hours of toxic chemicals that adds up to by the time the child is 18 months old, when signs of autism first tend to show up.
b) Car seats trigger autism in otherwise healthy children.
A friend of mine turned her son’s car seat around, no doubt releasing dangerous chemicals in the air, and later that day noticed signs of autism. Before she turned the seat around, he was completely normal. Her son got diagnosed within a few months. If only she had never agitated those chemicals, or better yet, never let her son sit in a car seat at all, he could have lived a neurotypical life.
c) The Amish don’t use car seats and don’t have Autism.
d) As seat belt usage has increased, so has autism."
This has got to be the most funniest pseudoscience theory I've read on autism in 15 years.
My ex-wife's youngest son was diagnosed with autism by age 4, and as such I did quite a lot of research, from reliable sources mind you, on autism as I was ignorant of the disorder. But thing I learned then, which is still true today, is the medical community does not have, nor are they any closer to having, the one and only exact cause of autism. One thing I am quite certain; however, is autism is not caused by turning a child's car seat around.
But, I would like to know how a lay person would even know what the signs of autism are without educating themselves about autism?
The Amish, for the most part, do not ride in cars or vans, they use horse and buggy transportation. However, when they do hire an English to drive them to another state, or even across the state, they do use seat belts. I know several people in the southern tier who drive Amish to Ohio and Indiana from time to time.
Under her Fear Mongering paragraph, she states that in 2012, there were 25,580 deaths in car crashes. In the next paragraph, she states that 122 people died from using seat belts in that same year. The number 25,580 is a hyperlink to statisticbrain.com that has a break down of fatal car crashes by year. According to her source, statisticbrain.com, the number of people killed in car crashes, for 2012, is listed at 33,561. She not only contradicts herself, but her own linked source to back up her pseudo scientific conclusions, that seat belts cause autism, and kill people.
The link of her source:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/car-crash-fatality-statistics-2/
Richard, you seem to be
Richard, you seem to be taking the article seriously, or are you just extending the joke?
A Modest
A Modest Proposal.
http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html
Killing two birds with one
Killing two birds with one stone -- Swift for the win.
Howard, whenever I see the
Howard, whenever I see the opportunity to poke fun at nonsense like this, I'll take it.