The US has forgotten how to win a war. Ever since Vietnam, Washington has mandated conduct on the battlefield which has cost innumerable casualties to American Armed Forces members.
If it is determined that a true threat to our country exists, Washington needs to give the commanders their objectives and then get the hell out of the way. Until politicians are willing to do that - being fully aware of the inherent risks - the US will never win another war.
"the US will never win another war."
There are no winners in war, it's a lose lose proposition. Just my opinion.
We were unable to imprint our ways on this country, as evidenced by the mass desertion of the Iranian troops. No US soldier would do what these soldiers are doing.
I'm with you on this, though...let the military do what they do, and keep the powermongers in DC out of the way. If we do feel compelled to return to a place we were asked to leave, we better make sure we turn it into the parking lot it should have been in the first place.
And for all the tanks and weapons these deserters were provided by the US, let's suck a few billion barrels of oil as compensation.
I voted NO. We have wasted too much National treasury and lives on this God Forsaken hunk of real estate. This is an internal civil war. Let them sort it out.
There were more than 47,000 combat deaths in Vietnam.
There were fewer than 4,000 in Iraq.
How is that "innumerable casualties"?
With our superior fire power today, better tactics, better equipment, drones and smart bombs, we suffer much fewer casualties in war than previous generations.
We are actually much better at executing wars than any time in history, better than any nation in history, better than any nation in the world.
But no matter how good you are, you can't win unwinnable wars.
Actually, Howard, I think it was around 52,000 - not including deaths caused later and to this day by agent orange. Also you are not taking into account the time frames of the two.
I acknowledge that technology has reduced risks to our troops but stand by my statement that MANY of these deaths can be directly attributed to rules of engagement put in place purely due to attempts at political gain.
With the exception of the World War II (and perhaps the initial attack on Afghanistan), every American war since at least 1900 has been fought for political gain.
War Casualties do not just include the dead. They also include the physically and mentally wounded. Add to those the suffering families of those who served. That's how casualties become "innumerable."
In warfare today, we equip and teach our tactics to those we stupidly think are our friends....which all eventually gets used against us. Then we use, for example, an expensive B-1 Bomber equipped with a smart bomb to locate/kill 2 guys on the ground. Then we tire of everything and eventually leave.....and the cycle continues.
WWII was the template on how to win a war. Wage non stop death and destruction until the enemy meets at the mahogany desk on top of our best aircraft carrier. If we don't have that kind of will to win, then no casualty is justified.
Looking at the list of wars that America fought before 1900 Howard, looks like most are also for political gain as well as material gain...
American Revolutionary War 1775–1783
Northwest Indian War 1785–1796
Quasi-War 1798–1800
First Barbary War 1801–1805
Other actions against pirates 1800–1900
Chesapeake–Leopard Affair 1807
War of 1812 1812–1815
Marquesas Expedition 1813–1814
Second Barbary War 1815
First Seminole War 1817–1818
First Sumatran Expedition 1832
Black Hawk War 1832
Second Seminole War 1835–1842
Mexican–American War 1846–1848
Cayuse War 1847-1856
Rogue River Wars 1851-1856
Yakima War 1855-1856
Third Seminole War 1855–1858
Coeur d'Alene War 1858
Civil War: total 1861–1865 [
Dakota War of 1862
(Little Crow's War) 1862
Shimonoseki Straits 1863
Snake Indian War 1864–1868
Indian Wars 1865–1898
Red Cloud's War 1866–1868
Korea (Shinmiyangyo) 1871
Modoc War 1872–1873
Great Sioux War 1875–1877
Nez Perce War 1877
Bannock War 1878
Ute War 1879
Sheepeater Indian War 1879
Samoan crisis 1887-1889
Ghost Dance War 1890–1891
Sugar Point
Pillager Band of Chippewa Indians 1898
Spanish–American War 1898
Philippine–American War 1898–1913
Boxer Rebellion 1900–1901
You are naive to think war is a lose lose propostion.
The technological advances that are made in the name of national defense and war alone to me make it at least a lose-draw prop.
WW2 was a win lose result
Civil War was a win lose result
Spanish American War was a win lose result
American Revolution was a win-win result as England is arguably our greatest ally and defender of freedom.
Vietnam was a war we were winning till we quit.
Desert Storm was a conflict that was a lose lose result because we didn't finish the job.
Iraqi Freedom was a win lose result, the ensuing conflict after the liberation of Iraq from Saddam was a separate war (regardless of what the media says, when the enemy is someone different than who you started fighting ie. Iraqi army vs Al Quesedilla it is a different war)
Afghanistan was winnable before Obama started negotiating with the Taliban.
For someone who enjoys freedoms won through blood sweat and tears, you'd think your view of war would be a little less skewed toward peace by cowardice.
“War Casualties do not just include the dead. They also include the physically and mentally wounded. Add to those the suffering families of those who served. That's how casualties become ‘innumerable.’”
Agree, and add the collateral damage of civilians and their families and their physical and mental well being, their homes, their lives, that doesn’t affect us because it’s not happening here. The “better weapons = fewer casualties” equation makes no sense to me.
Julie thats not entirely true there dear. The worst war we fought was the Civil War which did happen here and did affect us.
The most casulties we ever suffered in one war was in the Civil War. over 750,000 deaths in that one war alone. WW II which was the second most casulties we ever suffered was only half of that at about 420,000 or so.
Wars are gonna happen, it's man's nature. People have been used by Gov'ts and Kings and dictators since the beginning of recorded time. It's never gonna go away.
Howard I agree but politics, especially in the Civil and Indian Wars were at the heart of the conflicts. Do you consider Manifest Destiny a political movement?
Tom, let me reiterate that I voted no - but not for the reasons you did.
Looking long term, I strongly believe that eventually we will be forced to go back there. The Al Qaeda backed Sunnis, once they establish an even stronger foothold than they have today will make Iraq one big training ground for terrorists.
Add to that the fact that Iran is now posturing itself - offering to assist it's centuries old foe Iraq - makes the middle east an even more volatile region than it was yesterday. Iran NEVER does ANYTHING without it somehow furthering their aim to be a nuclear power (if they aren't already).
A third concern is the current administration's lack of concern for one of our two greatest allies ever: Israel. We have left them to fend for themselves. By funding Hamas through the Palestinians we have actually slapped them in the face. Our combined conventional forces kept them relatively safe. On their own they may have no recourse to an attack than a nuclear response.
No easy answers for sure. Until we as a nation have CLEAR CUT objectives in the middle east and the fortitude to carry out the necessary steps, we would only be burying more of heroes needlessly.
No, we already did that once,
No, we already did that once, except now they are better armed, with our damn weapons.
(That sound you just heard was my head exploding)
Although I am somewhat
Although I am somewhat hawkish, I voted no.
The US has forgotten how to win a war. Ever since Vietnam, Washington has mandated conduct on the battlefield which has cost innumerable casualties to American Armed Forces members.
If it is determined that a true threat to our country exists, Washington needs to give the commanders their objectives and then get the hell out of the way. Until politicians are willing to do that - being fully aware of the inherent risks - the US will never win another war.
"the US will never win
"the US will never win another war."
There are no winners in war, it's a lose lose proposition. Just my opinion.
We were unable to imprint our ways on this country, as evidenced by the mass desertion of the Iranian troops. No US soldier would do what these soldiers are doing.
I'm with you on this, though...let the military do what they do, and keep the powermongers in DC out of the way. If we do feel compelled to return to a place we were asked to leave, we better make sure we turn it into the parking lot it should have been in the first place.
And for all the tanks and weapons these deserters were provided by the US, let's suck a few billion barrels of oil as compensation.
I voted NO. We have wasted
I voted NO. We have wasted too much National treasury and lives on this God Forsaken hunk of real estate. This is an internal civil war. Let them sort it out.
There were more than 47,000
There were more than 47,000 combat deaths in Vietnam.
There were fewer than 4,000 in Iraq.
How is that "innumerable casualties"?
With our superior fire power today, better tactics, better equipment, drones and smart bombs, we suffer much fewer casualties in war than previous generations.
We are actually much better at executing wars than any time in history, better than any nation in history, better than any nation in the world.
But no matter how good you are, you can't win unwinnable wars.
I can't believe our
I can't believe our government would be that stupid.......ah......hang on a minute.....mmmmm.......never mind.....
Actually, Howard, I think it
Actually, Howard, I think it was around 52,000 - not including deaths caused later and to this day by agent orange. Also you are not taking into account the time frames of the two.
Regardless, we have lost 6000 on the battlefield since Vietnam in various "conflicts". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war
I acknowledge that technology has reduced risks to our troops but stand by my statement that MANY of these deaths can be directly attributed to rules of engagement put in place purely due to attempts at political gain.
With the exception of the
With the exception of the World War II (and perhaps the initial attack on Afghanistan), every American war since at least 1900 has been fought for political gain.
War Casualties do not just
War Casualties do not just include the dead. They also include the physically and mentally wounded. Add to those the suffering families of those who served. That's how casualties become "innumerable."
In warfare today, we equip and teach our tactics to those we stupidly think are our friends....which all eventually gets used against us. Then we use, for example, an expensive B-1 Bomber equipped with a smart bomb to locate/kill 2 guys on the ground. Then we tire of everything and eventually leave.....and the cycle continues.
WWII was the template on how to win a war. Wage non stop death and destruction until the enemy meets at the mahogany desk on top of our best aircraft carrier. If we don't have that kind of will to win, then no casualty is justified.
Looking at the list of wars
Looking at the list of wars that America fought before 1900 Howard, looks like most are also for political gain as well as material gain...
American Revolutionary War 1775–1783
Northwest Indian War 1785–1796
Quasi-War 1798–1800
First Barbary War 1801–1805
Other actions against pirates 1800–1900
Chesapeake–Leopard Affair 1807
War of 1812 1812–1815
Marquesas Expedition 1813–1814
Second Barbary War 1815
First Seminole War 1817–1818
First Sumatran Expedition 1832
Black Hawk War 1832
Second Seminole War 1835–1842
Mexican–American War 1846–1848
Cayuse War 1847-1856
Rogue River Wars 1851-1856
Yakima War 1855-1856
Third Seminole War 1855–1858
Coeur d'Alene War 1858
Civil War: total 1861–1865 [
Dakota War of 1862
(Little Crow's War) 1862
Shimonoseki Straits 1863
Snake Indian War 1864–1868
Indian Wars 1865–1898
Red Cloud's War 1866–1868
Korea (Shinmiyangyo) 1871
Modoc War 1872–1873
Great Sioux War 1875–1877
Nez Perce War 1877
Bannock War 1878
Ute War 1879
Sheepeater Indian War 1879
Samoan crisis 1887-1889
Ghost Dance War 1890–1891
Sugar Point
Pillager Band of Chippewa Indians 1898
Spanish–American War 1898
Philippine–American War 1898–1913
Boxer Rebellion 1900–1901
bud, You are naive to think
bud,
You are naive to think war is a lose lose propostion.
The technological advances that are made in the name of national defense and war alone to me make it at least a lose-draw prop.
WW2 was a win lose result
Civil War was a win lose result
Spanish American War was a win lose result
American Revolution was a win-win result as England is arguably our greatest ally and defender of freedom.
Vietnam was a war we were winning till we quit.
Desert Storm was a conflict that was a lose lose result because we didn't finish the job.
Iraqi Freedom was a win lose result, the ensuing conflict after the liberation of Iraq from Saddam was a separate war (regardless of what the media says, when the enemy is someone different than who you started fighting ie. Iraqi army vs Al Quesedilla it is a different war)
Afghanistan was winnable before Obama started negotiating with the Taliban.
For someone who enjoys freedoms won through blood sweat and tears, you'd think your view of war would be a little less skewed toward peace by cowardice.
Kyle, you're list kind of
Kyle, you're list kind of illustrates why I did a cut off at 1900. We're all more family with those wars.
“War Casualties do not just
“War Casualties do not just include the dead. They also include the physically and mentally wounded. Add to those the suffering families of those who served. That's how casualties become ‘innumerable.’”
Agree, and add the collateral damage of civilians and their families and their physical and mental well being, their homes, their lives, that doesn’t affect us because it’s not happening here. The “better weapons = fewer casualties” equation makes no sense to me.
Julie thats not entirely true
Julie thats not entirely true there dear. The worst war we fought was the Civil War which did happen here and did affect us.
The most casulties we ever suffered in one war was in the Civil War. over 750,000 deaths in that one war alone. WW II which was the second most casulties we ever suffered was only half of that at about 420,000 or so.
Wars are gonna happen, it's man's nature. People have been used by Gov'ts and Kings and dictators since the beginning of recorded time. It's never gonna go away.
Howard I agree but politics, especially in the Civil and Indian Wars were at the heart of the conflicts. Do you consider Manifest Destiny a political movement?
Leave the Iraqi's to kill
Leave the Iraqi's to kill each other, that is what they do best.
I don't think it was as much
I don't think it was as much for **personal** political gain then as it is now.
Tom, let me reiterate that I
Tom, let me reiterate that I voted no - but not for the reasons you did.
Looking long term, I strongly believe that eventually we will be forced to go back there. The Al Qaeda backed Sunnis, once they establish an even stronger foothold than they have today will make Iraq one big training ground for terrorists.
Add to that the fact that Iran is now posturing itself - offering to assist it's centuries old foe Iraq - makes the middle east an even more volatile region than it was yesterday. Iran NEVER does ANYTHING without it somehow furthering their aim to be a nuclear power (if they aren't already).
A third concern is the current administration's lack of concern for one of our two greatest allies ever: Israel. We have left them to fend for themselves. By funding Hamas through the Palestinians we have actually slapped them in the face. Our combined conventional forces kept them relatively safe. On their own they may have no recourse to an attack than a nuclear response.
No easy answers for sure. Until we as a nation have CLEAR CUT objectives in the middle east and the fortitude to carry out the necessary steps, we would only be burying more of heroes needlessly.
Yeah Bob I will concede that
Yeah Bob I will concede that point on the personal political greed.