I think I'd be royally pissed if I lived in an area that was locked down for a sweep, or was even visiting one of those areas. I do NOT like the idea of effectively treating everybody in an area as a criminal.
I'm all for good law enforcement. Every police officer takes an oath to perserve and protect the constitution.
Per your constitutional rights, a citizen has a right to not answer any questions from a police officer. A citizen does not have to carry or show id and cannot be stopped or detained without probable cause.
Some of Heubucshs comments suggest his dept will violate citizens constitutional rights.
If the police dept arrests a citizen and violates their constitutional rights, the city can be sued.
Heubucshs comments will be used against him and the city if rights are violated,,
People will be able to come and go -- maybe not without being asked to show an ID -- and the sweeps will be over quickly....
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one having a problem with this statement.
unless the Patriot Act took the RIGHT to liberty away from me, I still want to exercise it. I do NOT want to give up any of my RIGHTS to feel safe.
With the passage of the SAFE ACT the law abiding citizen is closer to protecting themselves with a slingshot, however I for one, will take my chances.
David,
If the chief is telling the truth, unless they have a warrant, you do not even have to answer the door. If you're leaving or entering the area, you do not have to answer questions or show ID.
You want to cooperate, fine. If not, fine. If there is a warrant out, different story. And with all the video recording devices (smart phones, etc.), I would have mine on when they came around.
Thank you, Howard... I was assuming this would follow the process used in other cities as described in a previous thread.
After reading the details on the sweeps rather than depend on errant sweep descriptions from earlier posts, this could be beneficial... as long as authorities stuck to proper procedure. Mark B posted an informative description of the 4 levels of inquiry - if that is followed it should be OK.
Lets remember what the goal is. To get the scum bags and thieves out of our neighborhoods and town. Law enforcement isn't trying to harass good honest people. They want your help to weed these people out. Some of you bitch that they are not doing enough to find these people, then you bitch when they have a plan. Do you really think the people they are after are going to want and stay in a small city once they realize their chances of being caught have increased.
john, a copy and paste.....I read it differently than you do.
Contrary to previous reports, Heubusch said, the police aren't coming in and locking down a neighborhood for two or three hours. People will be able to come and go -- maybe not without being asked to show an ID -- and the sweeps will be over quickly
I'm still on the fence on this thing. Mr. Molino's first statement really seemed outrageous in what it proposed. However the Chief of Police has clarified things a little. but now we are left with what is truth? As someone earlier said this needs to be documented and put out there as a "Final Word" as to what is gonna happen with these sweeps and what is expected of citizens and what the police can and can't do. I have heard 2 versions now and as it stands they contradict each other enough that to go to a council meeting on this and speak for or against it would be confusing at best. Unless this confusion is purposeful to eliminate much debate until these sweeps actually happen that is...
Cant we get an official statement that lays it out as plainly as possible? I can't imagine that having the quotes from Molino and the quotes from the Chief as reported are going to lend themselves to effective prosecution of anyone with such mixed signals and confusion. There are some parts I like and some I dont but to be honest I dont see this having much effect either way as the impression I get from the average Batavian is if it doesn't directly affect that person they would rather not get involved. The Buffalo example of this is good but they have organized block committees and organizations that exsist to support it. There's not much of that around here so I see it falling on it's face as you need to have a sense of community before you can defend that community.
I don't see why there should be any confusion. One person misspoke. Another person, of equal credibility but more directly involved came forward and provided the correct information, completely nullifying the prior information. Why is that confusing?
Also, Vibrant Batavia is in the process of setting up and organizing block clubs.
Kyle, block clubs do not work in neighborhoods where law abiding citizens are afraid to go out of their house.
Everyone is focusing on arrest and searches, the sweeps are not just about making immediate arrest, they are about communicating with law abiding residents of a neighborhood that the community hasn't forgotten them.
It is about positive contact and neighborhood empowerment not handcuffing and interrogating. It is about showing law abiding residents it is still their neighborhood.
And it is not just about law enforcement, it is about almost all city resources for those neighborhoods,
What the council should really do is invite some Buffalo officials to address the council and the public about what these programs are in reality
well I am still confused as to who to believe. this is what government is all about, fool the people to get the control they seek.
a case in point is the seatbelt law. years ago when the seatbelt law was being proposed. the people where told "the police will not be able to pull you over and ticket you simply because you appeared to be not wearing a seatbelt" well you see where we are today, the police set up roadblocks to issue you a ticket if you are not wearing a seatbelt. not wearing a seatbelt is now probable cause to search your pockets "for your safety"
while I do have respect for law enforcement and the job they do, I have lost it for the legislators who seek to control every aspect of our daily lives.
Well Mark I think block clubs do work.....elsewhere but here I think they will fail as too many people love to bitch about things but when it come times to get involved they just want to mind their own business and fade into the background.
I try to live by a personal code.... If I publicly complain about something I try to have a viable solution to that which I am complaining about before speaking out. The only aspect of this thing I can come up with a solution for is the non-compliant landlords. As I said before, use the steps already in place for compliance, but if a landlord comply then leavy heavy fines. If they dont pay the fines then add the fines to their tax bill the next year. They default on that, then seize the property and put it under a property management company hired by the city. Let the city collect the profits that the landlord would have collected and add it to the city coffers. I guarentee that would separate the wheat from the chaff, and make the city some money as well. Slumlords wont like that but the decent landlords and property owners would. Thas just my suggestion and I realize that there is room for lots of corruption in doing that as well but it would keep things local. Rather than having empty properties dot the landscape that eventually attract squatters and an even worse criminal element to the city.
Of course Block clubs work Kyle, what I meant is that Block clubs, in troubled neighborhoods take some doing. Neighborhood Sweeps in Buffalo actually paved the way for more block clubs and for other not for profits and local volunteer groups to take root.
When you said that Buffalo has organized block clubs, you have to realize that those clubs in some of the more troubled neighborhoods were made possible by the sweeps. Like I have been saying, Neighborhood Sweeps in Buffalo are about much more than law and code enforcement, they are about neighborhood empowerment.
I have no doubt what so ever that after a few sweeps here BID will be in there enforce helping to organize them just like they are planning for all the communities. The sweeps are about making contact, Chief Heubush was very accurate when he said they are more about positive contact.
Creating a spirit of neighborhood goes way farther than penalizing a Landlord (Slum lord or not)
Pardon me Kyle, but block clubs do work here, when I first moved on Kingsbury Ave, we had one. We would close the block off once a year, have a picnic, everyone knew everyone, There were many neighborhoods in Batavia that did the same. Gradually as people moved away, especially the organizers they faded.
They will work here again too, it takes a few people in each neighborhood to organize them. I am quite confident that as BID gets rolling that we will see that again in many neighborhoods, as far as our current trouble neighborhoods go, that is exactly what Neighborhood Sweeps are about, making positive contact with residents, again not just law enforcement, not just city and county departments but organizations like BID, Care A Van etc
Everyone lately seems to complain about everything, including proven solutions, the immediate reaction is to fine punish etc. Then everyone complains about the solutions thus nothing changes.
That is why I believe in Sweeps, because I know that it far more than just police raids or presence, it is about community building by making that elusive positive contact with those that otherwise won't. It is about stimulating excitement for the community'
It starts with shaking up the bad actors, it also starts with waking up the good actors.
An empowered neighborhood is way more powerful than fines or citations. Making a positive contact is an outreach not a punishment.
I've been reading the articles and the comments on this for a while, so I think I'm going to chime in.
I get the points in the fears of over reaching by law enforcement (which are very much needed), however, in the past 13 years of me actually paying attention to world around me and hearing "just you wait, their going to do this...," they actually haven't. Yes there's times you have to wonder, but ultimately that person(s) were/was doing something illegal. If a Cop by complete random pick and chance asks me to show ID, I'll do it. My pride is not so big I have declare my rights for something so minor. If I'm not doing anything wrong, I have no worries or anything to hide. They go questions, I'll try to answer them.
In the case of the Sweeps, I'm want to see this work the way it should. I want a cleaner home town for my daughter. I can see this helping IF the community comes together hand helps it. I'll even make some coffee and fresh donuts for them when they visit.
An added note, if when there is an over reach and there is need for "action," I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of Officers who aren't blind and would be on our side. So knowing this eases my fears that the Officers themselves are a problem.
I think I'd be royally pissed
I think I'd be royally pissed if I lived in an area that was locked down for a sweep, or was even visiting one of those areas. I do NOT like the idea of effectively treating everybody in an area as a criminal.
One caveat - if an effective
One caveat - if an effective sweep is ever done on Wall Street with the appropriate number of arrests, I might change my mind.
Yeah - that'll happen.
I'm all for good law
I'm all for good law enforcement. Every police officer takes an oath to perserve and protect the constitution.
Per your constitutional rights, a citizen has a right to not answer any questions from a police officer. A citizen does not have to carry or show id and cannot be stopped or detained without probable cause.
Some of Heubucshs comments suggest his dept will violate citizens constitutional rights.
If the police dept arrests a citizen and violates their constitutional rights, the city can be sued.
Heubucshs comments will be used against him and the city if rights are violated,,
An attorneys dream
People will be able to come
People will be able to come and go -- maybe not without being asked to show an ID -- and the sweeps will be over quickly....
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one having a problem with this statement.
unless the Patriot Act took the RIGHT to liberty away from me, I still want to exercise it. I do NOT want to give up any of my RIGHTS to feel safe.
With the passage of the SAFE ACT the law abiding citizen is closer to protecting themselves with a slingshot, however I for one, will take my chances.
Thanks but NO thanks
David, If the chief is
David,
If the chief is telling the truth, unless they have a warrant, you do not even have to answer the door. If you're leaving or entering the area, you do not have to answer questions or show ID.
You want to cooperate, fine. If not, fine. If there is a warrant out, different story. And with all the video recording devices (smart phones, etc.), I would have mine on when they came around.
I still want Molino's street
I still want Molino's street done first to show good faith :)
Tim Raines, which,
Tim Raines, which, specifically, of the chief's comments suggest "his dept will violate citizens constitutional rights"?
Tim Miller, there is no lock down.
Thank you, Howard... I was
Thank you, Howard... I was assuming this would follow the process used in other cities as described in a previous thread.
After reading the details on the sweeps rather than depend on errant sweep descriptions from earlier posts, this could be beneficial... as long as authorities stuck to proper procedure. Mark B posted an informative description of the 4 levels of inquiry - if that is followed it should be OK.
Lets remember what the goal
Lets remember what the goal is. To get the scum bags and thieves out of our neighborhoods and town. Law enforcement isn't trying to harass good honest people. They want your help to weed these people out. Some of you bitch that they are not doing enough to find these people, then you bitch when they have a plan. Do you really think the people they are after are going to want and stay in a small city once they realize their chances of being caught have increased.
1/13/14 "The sweeps will
1/13/14 "The sweeps will involve closing down a neighborhood for two or three hours so nobody gets in or out"
http://thebatavian.com/howard-owens/proposed-city-budget-holds-line-tax…
1/16/14 "Contrary to previous reports, Heubusch said, the police aren't coming in and locking down a neighborhood for two or three hours. People will be able to come and go."
http://thebatavian.com/node/41043
At the very least, information released to the public needs to be better coordinated.
john, a copy and paste.....I
john, a copy and paste.....I read it differently than you do.
Contrary to previous reports, Heubusch said, the police aren't coming in and locking down a neighborhood for two or three hours. People will be able to come and go -- maybe not without being asked to show an ID -- and the sweeps will be over quickly
I'm still on the fence on
I'm still on the fence on this thing. Mr. Molino's first statement really seemed outrageous in what it proposed. However the Chief of Police has clarified things a little. but now we are left with what is truth? As someone earlier said this needs to be documented and put out there as a "Final Word" as to what is gonna happen with these sweeps and what is expected of citizens and what the police can and can't do. I have heard 2 versions now and as it stands they contradict each other enough that to go to a council meeting on this and speak for or against it would be confusing at best. Unless this confusion is purposeful to eliminate much debate until these sweeps actually happen that is...
Cant we get an official statement that lays it out as plainly as possible? I can't imagine that having the quotes from Molino and the quotes from the Chief as reported are going to lend themselves to effective prosecution of anyone with such mixed signals and confusion. There are some parts I like and some I dont but to be honest I dont see this having much effect either way as the impression I get from the average Batavian is if it doesn't directly affect that person they would rather not get involved. The Buffalo example of this is good but they have organized block committees and organizations that exsist to support it. There's not much of that around here so I see it falling on it's face as you need to have a sense of community before you can defend that community.
I don't see why there should
I don't see why there should be any confusion. One person misspoke. Another person, of equal credibility but more directly involved came forward and provided the correct information, completely nullifying the prior information. Why is that confusing?
Also, Vibrant Batavia is in the process of setting up and organizing block clubs.
Kyle, block clubs do not work
Kyle, block clubs do not work in neighborhoods where law abiding citizens are afraid to go out of their house.
Everyone is focusing on arrest and searches, the sweeps are not just about making immediate arrest, they are about communicating with law abiding residents of a neighborhood that the community hasn't forgotten them.
It is about positive contact and neighborhood empowerment not handcuffing and interrogating. It is about showing law abiding residents it is still their neighborhood.
And it is not just about law enforcement, it is about almost all city resources for those neighborhoods,
What the council should really do is invite some Buffalo officials to address the council and the public about what these programs are in reality
well I am still confused as
well I am still confused as to who to believe. this is what government is all about, fool the people to get the control they seek.
a case in point is the seatbelt law. years ago when the seatbelt law was being proposed. the people where told "the police will not be able to pull you over and ticket you simply because you appeared to be not wearing a seatbelt" well you see where we are today, the police set up roadblocks to issue you a ticket if you are not wearing a seatbelt. not wearing a seatbelt is now probable cause to search your pockets "for your safety"
while I do have respect for law enforcement and the job they do, I have lost it for the legislators who seek to control every aspect of our daily lives.
tell me who do you believe......
Well Mark I think block clubs
Well Mark I think block clubs do work.....elsewhere but here I think they will fail as too many people love to bitch about things but when it come times to get involved they just want to mind their own business and fade into the background.
I try to live by a personal code.... If I publicly complain about something I try to have a viable solution to that which I am complaining about before speaking out. The only aspect of this thing I can come up with a solution for is the non-compliant landlords. As I said before, use the steps already in place for compliance, but if a landlord comply then leavy heavy fines. If they dont pay the fines then add the fines to their tax bill the next year. They default on that, then seize the property and put it under a property management company hired by the city. Let the city collect the profits that the landlord would have collected and add it to the city coffers. I guarentee that would separate the wheat from the chaff, and make the city some money as well. Slumlords wont like that but the decent landlords and property owners would. Thas just my suggestion and I realize that there is room for lots of corruption in doing that as well but it would keep things local. Rather than having empty properties dot the landscape that eventually attract squatters and an even worse criminal element to the city.
Of course Block clubs work
Of course Block clubs work Kyle, what I meant is that Block clubs, in troubled neighborhoods take some doing. Neighborhood Sweeps in Buffalo actually paved the way for more block clubs and for other not for profits and local volunteer groups to take root.
When you said that Buffalo has organized block clubs, you have to realize that those clubs in some of the more troubled neighborhoods were made possible by the sweeps. Like I have been saying, Neighborhood Sweeps in Buffalo are about much more than law and code enforcement, they are about neighborhood empowerment.
I have no doubt what so ever that after a few sweeps here BID will be in there enforce helping to organize them just like they are planning for all the communities. The sweeps are about making contact, Chief Heubush was very accurate when he said they are more about positive contact.
Creating a spirit of neighborhood goes way farther than penalizing a Landlord (Slum lord or not)
Pardon me Kyle, but block
Pardon me Kyle, but block clubs do work here, when I first moved on Kingsbury Ave, we had one. We would close the block off once a year, have a picnic, everyone knew everyone, There were many neighborhoods in Batavia that did the same. Gradually as people moved away, especially the organizers they faded.
They will work here again too, it takes a few people in each neighborhood to organize them. I am quite confident that as BID gets rolling that we will see that again in many neighborhoods, as far as our current trouble neighborhoods go, that is exactly what Neighborhood Sweeps are about, making positive contact with residents, again not just law enforcement, not just city and county departments but organizations like BID, Care A Van etc
Everyone lately seems to complain about everything, including proven solutions, the immediate reaction is to fine punish etc. Then everyone complains about the solutions thus nothing changes.
That is why I believe in Sweeps, because I know that it far more than just police raids or presence, it is about community building by making that elusive positive contact with those that otherwise won't. It is about stimulating excitement for the community'
It starts with shaking up the bad actors, it also starts with waking up the good actors.
An empowered neighborhood is way more powerful than fines or citations. Making a positive contact is an outreach not a punishment.
I've been reading the
I've been reading the articles and the comments on this for a while, so I think I'm going to chime in.
I get the points in the fears of over reaching by law enforcement (which are very much needed), however, in the past 13 years of me actually paying attention to world around me and hearing "just you wait, their going to do this...," they actually haven't. Yes there's times you have to wonder, but ultimately that person(s) were/was doing something illegal. If a Cop by complete random pick and chance asks me to show ID, I'll do it. My pride is not so big I have declare my rights for something so minor. If I'm not doing anything wrong, I have no worries or anything to hide. They go questions, I'll try to answer them.
In the case of the Sweeps, I'm want to see this work the way it should. I want a cleaner home town for my daughter. I can see this helping IF the community comes together hand helps it. I'll even make some coffee and fresh donuts for them when they visit.
An added note, if when there is an over reach and there is need for "action," I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of Officers who aren't blind and would be on our side. So knowing this eases my fears that the Officers themselves are a problem.
Have a blessed day. :)