I am not saying that it is right or wrong.....but...Is anyone really surprised, in this post 9-11 world we live in, that we are being snooped on?? After that happened, I just assumed the gov't would be listening in.
And if this thing is as widespread as the media is reporting, how did the Boston Bombers not get caught?
If it was limited unwarranted search from messages and calls outside of the country I would have no issue. (assuming that once they discovered it was from an American citizen, surveillance was stopped and all messages deleted).
But we all know that this is not the case and never will be.
I can deal with the mistaken acquisition of data - even the thousands reported (so far) - as long as that information is disposed of immediately upon recognition that it should not have been caught in the dragnet. The system is relatively new, and mistakes will happen.
What I cannot deal with is the intentional abuse by individuals and groups:
- According to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), the FBI may have abused FISA warrants as many as 10,000 times - depending on the lax reviews of the FISA courts to review warrant requests https://www.eff.org/wp/patterns-misconduct-fbi-intelligence-violations
(and that was just from 2001-2008)
The Patriot Act and any successors currently in place need to be trashed, and a new system put in place - one that has true oversight, true transparency, and true penalties for intentional abuses.
Today's Public Service Announcement: If you answered "No" to this question, you may have inadvertently found yourself in the wrong country. Please refer to the current list of countries that do not abide by the principles of our Constitution. There are many to choose from.
Might?!? I'd laugh if it wasn't so tragic!
If anyone thinks that the gov't is not gathering and storing EVERY byte of electronic communications data that is sent/rec'd (whether it be outside the CONUS or inside, I have some PRIME beach-front property to sell you at bargain prices...!
EVERYTHING is being copied and saved in those massive data centers out west... everything.
If you are naive enough to think that the fed gov't has your safety and/or right to privacy in mind, you are going to be in for some HUGE surprises! Ignorance reigns supreme in this country that is NOT a 'democracy'...
Most people have actually been identified by various arms of the gov't as potential terrorists. A significant number of folks with a liberal bent aren't on that list, but will have served their usefulness once the fur flies, and will be handled the same way the "useful idiots" are always handled once they cannot protect themselves. Go ahead and look it up in order to open your eyes to reality... It's coming, and they know what will happen.
They are COUNTING on your remaining ignorant, and they are quite right that most won't do anything other than do what lemmings and sheeple do...
"The system is relatively new, and mistakes will happen."
Nope.
FYI;
"The System" is far from new. In the 1990's the NSA got smacked down in a public debate about purposefully adding back doors to encryption. They went ahead with their plans and did it away, covertly. Now the Feds are begging media to not report they have in fact back-doored the encryption commonly used every day by most Internet users.
"Feds Beg NY Times, Pro Publica Not To Reveal That They've Inserted Backdoors Into Internet Encryption"
Over the last 50 years our Government has succeed in becoming a menace to the very society is was created to serve. If that doesn't bother you at least a little bit, it's probably because you're too busy digging in the taxpayer trough looking for handouts to notice. :sigh:
Bob, it goes much deeper than the last 50 years. Think back to 1940s, and Pearl Harbor, Hawaii wasn't a state until 1959, but prior to that it was a U.S. territory, and there were many U.S. citizens living in Hawaii as well, many were Japanese-American citizens either born in the U.S. or became a U.S. citizen through the naturalization process, as many immigrants go through.
How many Japanese- Americans were not only spied on, but held in interment camps around Hawaii? You can't tell me that the spying on these people was conducted with a warrant.
Aside from that potential spying of Asian Americans mentioned, the attacks on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines, then on 9/11 nearly 60 years later, exemplifies the most glaring catastrophic failures of US Government Intelligence (sic) in the entire History of our Nation.
And they (the Government) expect We The People to just trust said Government which has repeatedly proven itself hopelessly incompetent, to do the "right thing" with our private data that they're acquiring by trampling all over our civil liberties (warrantless wiretapping) at the behest of a secret Court (FISA - Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) operating with little to no oversight as most of our Elected Senators and Representatives in Congress know little to nothing about it? Really?
Bah. It's hard to talk about this stuff without sounding like a frothing lunatic since it reads like something that came out of a bad scifi novel. But that indeed is exactly what's happening. :sigh:
Government isn't incompetent. I hate this demand for perfection and expectation that no mistakes should ever be made. Government is human. The fact that it's human (people make up government and people make mistakes) is why government should be limited in size and scope so it can do the least damage to the fewest number of people.
Government isnt incompetent? Maybe on a very very basic level is isnt too bad. However I can think of many many many more instances of the Government's incompetence than it's good choices.
They are human and they arent perfect, yes this is true. However they are also very blind to most of their constituents, responding only to $$$ rather than the majority of the people they represent. The garbage debate was a perfect example, forcing an expensive tote system into the mix was increasing costs ridiculously so. While some fought over whom the contractor would would be, the forcing of a tote system was what really complicated things exponentially. Yet whats funny is all the dread and gloom predictions of how the city garbage situation would slide downhill... I have seen really no difference. And we have even more choices as for who to contract with including a couple of new ones that wouldnt have even started up if we had the tote system or stuck with just those who bid on the city garbage contract. but look at the battle it took to do so.
Jasons weekly alteration of numbers as the issue developed was indicative of incompetence and the desire to quiet the average citizen until things were too late to change.
I'm not so sure I'd say Government is human. Humans learn from mistakes. Government keeps making the same ones over and over again expecting different results.
OK, you got me. Government isn't incompetent. It's insane!
The government is not incompetent but, self-serving. President Obama is incompetent in my eyes. We have too many unanswer issues and for a man whom bashed President Bush's stanch on Iran. Whom by the way are a real threat to the US. Now he wants to bomb Syria for a chemical attack that, we are not even positive was commit by the regime. How about letting the Arab League handle their own regional conflicts.
Government is an inanimate object. It is powerless to be either incompetent or competent. Everything the government does is done by people. People who make mistakes. People who are motivated by self interest if not outright selfishness. People who have prejudices and predilections and agendas not necessarily in concert with those around them. Even the well intentioned people make mistakes. Without people -- people to elect politicians, who appoint bureaucrats, who hire staff, who write rules and regulations and enforce it all -- there is no government. It takes people to make government, and since people are inherently flawed -- every single person in the world falls short of perfection -- the government will be flawed.
Which is why the government that governs best governs least.
Hmmm? I stated the government IS NOT incompetent but, self-serving which is extremely true. Especially, when the majority of our citizens are against a governmental policy yet, the government votes in favor of the minority. They mandate a healthcare policy for everyone but, themself and their special interest. President Obama is incompetent which, he has shown time and time again (i.e. Eygpt, Libya, and now with Syria). He is focus on Syria and not on the actual threat next door to them. Oh yeah IRS abusing their power yet, they are going to be responsible for Obamacare. How he handle the Trevon Martin case by stating, "If, he had a son he would look like Trevon." Making those who viewed the case as racial, believed they had the President's approval. He has handle just about ever issue negatively.
Competent or incompetent? Wrong descriptors. Our government has the potential to function as designed. Granted government will never be perfect- no more so than any human endeavor. But human fallibility is not the issue. Lawful government has been subordinated by special interests that use wealth to influence laws, policy and judgment. Our legislature has been rendered moot, incapable of decisive action, because of partisan intractability. Intentional deadlock created by corporate meddling in elections. The Supreme Court is tainted with partisan jurists, and the Executive Branch is run by defense contractors. Regulatory agencies are controlled by the industries each regulates. ...And the frosting on the cake: an electorate lost in 'Candy Land' thanks to corporate-owned (media) pied pipers.
I am not saying that it is
I am not saying that it is right or wrong.....but...Is anyone really surprised, in this post 9-11 world we live in, that we are being snooped on?? After that happened, I just assumed the gov't would be listening in.
And if this thing is as widespread as the media is reporting, how did the Boston Bombers not get caught?
What's there to say the
What's there to say the Boston bombers communicated electronically? They were brothers who lived together.
And that shows how absurd the idea of warrantless surveillance is ... violate our rights for what?
If it was limited unwarranted
If it was limited unwarranted search from messages and calls outside of the country I would have no issue. (assuming that once they discovered it was from an American citizen, surveillance was stopped and all messages deleted).
But we all know that this is not the case and never will be.
Our gov't would never deceive
Our gov't would never deceive the people.. Yes that is sarcasm folks.
*Might*? I can deal with the
*Might*?
I can deal with the mistaken acquisition of data - even the thousands reported (so far) - as long as that information is disposed of immediately upon recognition that it should not have been caught in the dragnet. The system is relatively new, and mistakes will happen.
What I cannot deal with is the intentional abuse by individuals and groups:
- Gathering of information on lovers, ex-lovers, and (most sickening) potential lovers (aka "stalking") is so bad that there is a phrase for it - "Loveint"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-wh…
- According to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), the FBI may have abused FISA warrants as many as 10,000 times - depending on the lax reviews of the FISA courts to review warrant requests
https://www.eff.org/wp/patterns-misconduct-fbi-intelligence-violations
(and that was just from 2001-2008)
- Even seemingly harmless data gathered can be abused
http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2013/06/10/how-analyzing-nsa-metadata-…
The Patriot Act and any successors currently in place need to be trashed, and a new system put in place - one that has true oversight, true transparency, and true penalties for intentional abuses.
Today's Public Service
Today's Public Service Announcement: If you answered "No" to this question, you may have inadvertently found yourself in the wrong country. Please refer to the current list of countries that do not abide by the principles of our Constitution. There are many to choose from.
Might?!? I'd laugh if it
Might?!? I'd laugh if it wasn't so tragic!
If anyone thinks that the gov't is not gathering and storing EVERY byte of electronic communications data that is sent/rec'd (whether it be outside the CONUS or inside, I have some PRIME beach-front property to sell you at bargain prices...!
EVERYTHING is being copied and saved in those massive data centers out west... everything.
If you are naive enough to think that the fed gov't has your safety and/or right to privacy in mind, you are going to be in for some HUGE surprises! Ignorance reigns supreme in this country that is NOT a 'democracy'...
Most people have actually been identified by various arms of the gov't as potential terrorists. A significant number of folks with a liberal bent aren't on that list, but will have served their usefulness once the fur flies, and will be handled the same way the "useful idiots" are always handled once they cannot protect themselves. Go ahead and look it up in order to open your eyes to reality... It's coming, and they know what will happen.
They are COUNTING on your remaining ignorant, and they are quite right that most won't do anything other than do what lemmings and sheeple do...
"The system is relatively
"The system is relatively new, and mistakes will happen."
Nope.
FYI;
"The System" is far from new. In the 1990's the NSA got smacked down in a public debate about purposefully adding back doors to encryption. They went ahead with their plans and did it away, covertly. Now the Feds are begging media to not report they have in fact back-doored the encryption commonly used every day by most Internet users.
"Feds Beg NY Times, Pro Publica Not To Reveal That They've Inserted Backdoors Into Internet Encryption"
http://tinyurl.com/kvgyht6
(edit: replaced broken link with shortened one.)
Over the last 50 years our Government has succeed in becoming a menace to the very society is was created to serve. If that doesn't bother you at least a little bit, it's probably because you're too busy digging in the taxpayer trough looking for handouts to notice. :sigh:
Bob, it goes much deeper than
Bob, it goes much deeper than the last 50 years. Think back to 1940s, and Pearl Harbor, Hawaii wasn't a state until 1959, but prior to that it was a U.S. territory, and there were many U.S. citizens living in Hawaii as well, many were Japanese-American citizens either born in the U.S. or became a U.S. citizen through the naturalization process, as many immigrants go through.
How many Japanese- Americans were not only spied on, but held in interment camps around Hawaii? You can't tell me that the spying on these people was conducted with a warrant.
Aside from that potential
Aside from that potential spying of Asian Americans mentioned, the attacks on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines, then on 9/11 nearly 60 years later, exemplifies the most glaring catastrophic failures of US Government Intelligence (sic) in the entire History of our Nation.
And they (the Government) expect We The People to just trust said Government which has repeatedly proven itself hopelessly incompetent, to do the "right thing" with our private data that they're acquiring by trampling all over our civil liberties (warrantless wiretapping) at the behest of a secret Court (FISA - Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) operating with little to no oversight as most of our Elected Senators and Representatives in Congress know little to nothing about it? Really?
Bah. It's hard to talk about this stuff without sounding like a frothing lunatic since it reads like something that came out of a bad scifi novel. But that indeed is exactly what's happening. :sigh:
Government isn't incompetent.
Government isn't incompetent. I hate this demand for perfection and expectation that no mistakes should ever be made. Government is human. The fact that it's human (people make up government and people make mistakes) is why government should be limited in size and scope so it can do the least damage to the fewest number of people.
Government isnt incompetent?
Government isnt incompetent? Maybe on a very very basic level is isnt too bad. However I can think of many many many more instances of the Government's incompetence than it's good choices.
They are human and they arent perfect, yes this is true. However they are also very blind to most of their constituents, responding only to $$$ rather than the majority of the people they represent. The garbage debate was a perfect example, forcing an expensive tote system into the mix was increasing costs ridiculously so. While some fought over whom the contractor would would be, the forcing of a tote system was what really complicated things exponentially. Yet whats funny is all the dread and gloom predictions of how the city garbage situation would slide downhill... I have seen really no difference. And we have even more choices as for who to contract with including a couple of new ones that wouldnt have even started up if we had the tote system or stuck with just those who bid on the city garbage contract. but look at the battle it took to do so.
Jasons weekly alteration of numbers as the issue developed was indicative of incompetence and the desire to quiet the average citizen until things were too late to change.
I'm not so sure I'd say
I'm not so sure I'd say Government is human. Humans learn from mistakes. Government keeps making the same ones over and over again expecting different results.
OK, you got me. Government isn't incompetent. It's insane!
The government is not
The government is not incompetent but, self-serving. President Obama is incompetent in my eyes. We have too many unanswer issues and for a man whom bashed President Bush's stanch on Iran. Whom by the way are a real threat to the US. Now he wants to bomb Syria for a chemical attack that, we are not even positive was commit by the regime. How about letting the Arab League handle their own regional conflicts.
Government is an inanimate
Government is an inanimate object. It is powerless to be either incompetent or competent. Everything the government does is done by people. People who make mistakes. People who are motivated by self interest if not outright selfishness. People who have prejudices and predilections and agendas not necessarily in concert with those around them. Even the well intentioned people make mistakes. Without people -- people to elect politicians, who appoint bureaucrats, who hire staff, who write rules and regulations and enforce it all -- there is no government. It takes people to make government, and since people are inherently flawed -- every single person in the world falls short of perfection -- the government will be flawed.
Which is why the government that governs best governs least.
Hmmm? I stated the government
Hmmm? I stated the government IS NOT incompetent but, self-serving which is extremely true. Especially, when the majority of our citizens are against a governmental policy yet, the government votes in favor of the minority. They mandate a healthcare policy for everyone but, themself and their special interest. President Obama is incompetent which, he has shown time and time again (i.e. Eygpt, Libya, and now with Syria). He is focus on Syria and not on the actual threat next door to them. Oh yeah IRS abusing their power yet, they are going to be responsible for Obamacare. How he handle the Trevon Martin case by stating, "If, he had a son he would look like Trevon." Making those who viewed the case as racial, believed they had the President's approval. He has handle just about ever issue negatively.
Competent or incompetent?
Competent or incompetent? Wrong descriptors. Our government has the potential to function as designed. Granted government will never be perfect- no more so than any human endeavor. But human fallibility is not the issue. Lawful government has been subordinated by special interests that use wealth to influence laws, policy and judgment. Our legislature has been rendered moot, incapable of decisive action, because of partisan intractability. Intentional deadlock created by corporate meddling in elections. The Supreme Court is tainted with partisan jurists, and the Executive Branch is run by defense contractors. Regulatory agencies are controlled by the industries each regulates. ...And the frosting on the cake: an electorate lost in 'Candy Land' thanks to corporate-owned (media) pied pipers.