Tricky question. The word "lawfully" throws a wrench into the spinning gears. Everyone is told how to lawfully live their life by "the law" (society and law enforcement). However, I also reserve the right to disregard laws that I think are silly, which is what most people also do.
Seat belt laws come to mind. If I don't want to wear one, I don't. If someone wants to smoke some pot, they generally disregard the law that says they're not supposed to do that. The laws I think most people in general will ignore are the new gun laws. Do I want my name on some gun registry list because I may or may not own a firearm with a thumb hole stock? Nope! Will most gun owners obey the 7 round per clip rule? NOPE!
People ultimately reserve the right to tell their selves how to live their life lawfully.
Doug, you raise a good point ... the intention was to preclude any argument along the lines of "well, obviously I don't control my own life because I'm not allowed to murder anybody."
You can choose to live outside the law, if you want. If you find yourself imprisoned, then you can say you have no control over how you live your life, but otherwise, it's all a choice. What I don't see is the mention of God, for me and a lot of people (obviously not everyone) we choose to live according to God's wishes. Or in my case try to, albeit not very well. I'm not saying everyone should do as I do, I'm all for personal liberty, just that many people follow a higher power than that of any government or mortal ruler. None of the above applies
Dave, I would argue whether to follow a religious teaching or not is a fundamental individual freedom, not anything imposed on you (though, there are those who do try to impose their religious views).
The question is about how you choose to order your life, but whether anybody outside of yourself should dictate in any degree how to order your life.
It's all a choice. Laws don't prevent anyone from doing anything. People have to choose to be lawful. The question is, WHO has the power to tell you? I would say that society has the power to dictate what is lawful or not. We do that with a majority consensus. Society then sets up law enforcement and a system to process the law, called the court system.
On one hand I say me, myself and I, but at the same time I say law enforcement, society, friends and family. Some people say it's the church. Morality and the law often try to coincide and in some countries, religion IS the law. This is causing a brain cramp, Howard, thanks a lot. If I had any hair to pull, I would.
And there goes the intellectual hater laying out the negative votes. Go to your room for a time-out until you can join the adults in a civil manner.
:-)
Allow me to clarify. I don't mean for you to believe that you're an intellectual hater. I mean you're a hater of intellectual thought. Please pour yourself a bowl of frosted flakes.
No matter who you try to BLAME for the choices you make - - the government, your family - - even God - - bottom line is that YOU make the choices on how you live your life. If you end up in jail, it's because YOU made bad choices. Believing in God is a CHOICE - - so saying that you did something because God told you to or not to - - well, it's not a much different excuse than " The devil made me do it. " It's a place to place the blame. In the end, even if you DO believe in God - - HE is going to have you ANSWER for the choices YOU made - - isn't He ???? The key word is not "lawfully" - it's the phrase " Who should have the power. " The answer is YOU - You should have the power - i.e., the RESPONSIBILITY to make and BE RESPONSIBLE for your OWN choices.
Certainly I agree that we all make the choices that order our lives. No one controls your life unless you want them to. Saying "God made me or wants me to do something" is surely a cop-out in my humble opinion. Humans have been given the gift of intellectual thought, the opportunity of evolution and the ability to distinguish right from wrong. We are not little worker ants, as some would have us believe. That's not what I was getting at, I'm saying that if one chooses to follow a religion, then there are certain ways you "live your life", certain laws to live by. It was just the first answer I searched for when I looked at the poll. As in "Servant of God".
The part people have problems with Dave is when one of the other entities you mentioned gives you a law that contradicts what God wishes have been indicated as. I argue as passionately as anyone here for gun ownership. But as Irene points out I took responsibility, I lawfully sold my pistol and gave up my permit, (which I got in onondaga county) because when I moved to Ithaca NY and found myself in a confrontational type job, I knew having a pistol permit could lead to a situation. I still have my rifle and shotgun, but those need to be unlocked from their rack the keys of which are in a safe. I know my temperment and those of who I had to deal with. My choice at the time was the wiser. Now I know I could never get that permit again with the new rules and the character of those who give the permits in this county.
Speaking indirectly about our lawful Govt ( LOL ) I came across an interesting article. Are we living in a republic or a democracy, I believe the Constitution established us a Republic as our pledge of alliegence states. But this article legally defines republic vs democracy then makes an interesting commentary. So let me seed the convo with an excerpt the post the link as I think it relates greatly to these discussions we have been having lately.
A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.
Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]
Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]
Howard, we impose rulers upon other people every day by voting. Not everyone agrees with the majority vote.
Illegal Mexican aliens really are the modern day slave in this country. Our officials want to to grant them citizenship but not the right to vote. The employers of illegals have no interest other than to exploit them.
Our officials don't have the right to murder or enslave or steal, but they do that to every one of us every day. Don't pay your taxes and see how quickly you realize your slave status and how willing the government is to steal from you. Fail to register for the draft and you'll quickly find out how the government feels that it has the right to murder you.
Many people also don't believe that their life belongs to them. They believe it belongs to zod or god or mohammed or wonder woman. Those kinds of beliefs breed fanaticism and division, not unity.
Using governmental force to impose a vision on others is intellectual sloth. When someone knocks on my door to try and impose their vision upon me, I call them annoying Jehova's.
The problem isn't that people do not seek liberty, the problem in society today is that too many people are willing to forsake some liberty in exchange for perceived security and/or piece of mind.
Religion is not the problem Doug, the manipulation of religion to justify an a agenda is the problem. If one is truly a Christian, they would not judge another who is not, because if you truly believe, you realize that it is God that judges. The basic tenet of Christianity is that you have free will, to choose to do what your faith demands or not too. It is then a matter of consequence as a Christian believes that God will judge them based on how they live their lives. It is no different in reality than personal responsibility for choices and actions that you choose in a secular society. The biggest miscalculation that some religious people make is believing that God will care for you in your life on earth, free will or freedom in your life also bares responsibility and consequence.
With civil liberty, it is in my view exactly the same thing, you should be free to do most anything you want, but you must be willing to face the consequence for your actions.
There will always be evil or bad people or what ever, all that a law should do is provide a consequence for actions that harm others. Our problem in society is that way too many see laws as a way to prevent behavior harmful to others, those that would harm, others are likely not to see any law as a deterrent, so that thinking in my opinion is flawed.
A true believer in most religions will see their faith as a guideline to conduct their own life and not impose their thought on others, likewise most people are good in heart and live with respect for others, all religions have zealots who twist their faith for agenda, and all societies have an element that show no respect for others.
It is not religion that divides, it is those who hide behind it, we do not need laws to protect us from our selves, we need laws that punish those who disregard our own freedoms.
Marks answer about free will and God also explains alot about some of the things that people who literally interpet the Bible have issues with. Lying is a sin, but if you lie to a child or a mother because you want to spare them some pain or trauma over something. You dont think God knows our intent behind our actions, nothing is truly black and white except for the text on these pages.
And that refrences the actual text, not it's content. lol
I think my libertarian roots began in Sunday School.
At my Nazarene Church we were taught that evil exists in the world because we were given free will to accept or reject God.
Love can only be freely given. God is powerful enough to force us to be good and worship him, but it's not really love if we're forced to do it.
My conclusion: If God loves us that much, who am I to presume to take God's place and tell others how to live their lives.
Laws are necessary to maintain order in a civil society, but if free will is to be properly understood, then laws should be at a minimum to ensure your rights don't trample my rights, nothing more.
It's not my place to tell you what size soda you can buy at the store and it's not your place to tell me what video games I should play. And that truth extends out to all facets of life.
As the video says, so long as I don't infringe on your freedom, such as stealing your property -- either directly or through government force -- then I should be free to live my life as I choose.
Mark, Kyle and Howard-It is so refreshing to hear someone say such intelligent and unbiased things. Many times people fail to differentiate between the true intent of their religion and the intent of the flawed person delivering the message. Every religion talks about being good to yourself and others and something along the lines of "don't throw stones if you live in glass houses." I have met some of the nicest and some not so nice from almost every religion. The difference has always been the way that the faith is twisted to meet an agenda. I wish more people could speak like the 3 of you! Please note I would have given each of you more than 1 thumbs up if possible lol
Living your life after GOD's wishes still is a me, myself and I vote. You elect to live your life that way. Even GOD states to follow the laws of man. Even thought our government is establishing laws without the Peoples' approval. The government wants to control the people and not the people controlling the government.
Glad to see a civil conversation without the name calling, bullying and just down right childishness that appears in other comment sections! That said I am curious to hear from those that chose "government/ Society" on why they feel that way......
Seems to me that some of the of the nearly 65% who voted the first option should consider coming out to one of our meetings! The next one is this coming Monday at 6:30 at Coffee Culture! We'd love to have you!
I was thinking the same thing before reading your comment Phil. It seems that 2 out of every 3 survey respondents on the Batavian are Libertarians. Sort of renews my faith in the human race :-)
Tricky question. The word
Tricky question. The word "lawfully" throws a wrench into the spinning gears. Everyone is told how to lawfully live their life by "the law" (society and law enforcement). However, I also reserve the right to disregard laws that I think are silly, which is what most people also do.
Seat belt laws come to mind. If I don't want to wear one, I don't. If someone wants to smoke some pot, they generally disregard the law that says they're not supposed to do that. The laws I think most people in general will ignore are the new gun laws. Do I want my name on some gun registry list because I may or may not own a firearm with a thumb hole stock? Nope! Will most gun owners obey the 7 round per clip rule? NOPE!
People ultimately reserve the right to tell their selves how to live their life lawfully.
Doug, you raise a good point
Doug, you raise a good point ... the intention was to preclude any argument along the lines of "well, obviously I don't control my own life because I'm not allowed to murder anybody."
You can choose to live
You can choose to live outside the law, if you want. If you find yourself imprisoned, then you can say you have no control over how you live your life, but otherwise, it's all a choice. What I don't see is the mention of God, for me and a lot of people (obviously not everyone) we choose to live according to God's wishes. Or in my case try to, albeit not very well. I'm not saying everyone should do as I do, I'm all for personal liberty, just that many people follow a higher power than that of any government or mortal ruler. None of the above applies
Dave, I would argue whether
Dave, I would argue whether to follow a religious teaching or not is a fundamental individual freedom, not anything imposed on you (though, there are those who do try to impose their religious views).
The question is about how you choose to order your life, but whether anybody outside of yourself should dictate in any degree how to order your life.
It's all a choice. Laws don't
It's all a choice. Laws don't prevent anyone from doing anything. People have to choose to be lawful. The question is, WHO has the power to tell you? I would say that society has the power to dictate what is lawful or not. We do that with a majority consensus. Society then sets up law enforcement and a system to process the law, called the court system.
On one hand I say me, myself and I, but at the same time I say law enforcement, society, friends and family. Some people say it's the church. Morality and the law often try to coincide and in some countries, religion IS the law. This is causing a brain cramp, Howard, thanks a lot. If I had any hair to pull, I would.
And there goes the
And there goes the intellectual hater laying out the negative votes. Go to your room for a time-out until you can join the adults in a civil manner.
:-)
Allow me to clarify. I don't mean for you to believe that you're an intellectual hater. I mean you're a hater of intellectual thought. Please pour yourself a bowl of frosted flakes.
No matter who you try to
No matter who you try to BLAME for the choices you make - - the government, your family - - even God - - bottom line is that YOU make the choices on how you live your life. If you end up in jail, it's because YOU made bad choices. Believing in God is a CHOICE - - so saying that you did something because God told you to or not to - - well, it's not a much different excuse than " The devil made me do it. " It's a place to place the blame. In the end, even if you DO believe in God - - HE is going to have you ANSWER for the choices YOU made - - isn't He ???? The key word is not "lawfully" - it's the phrase " Who should have the power. " The answer is YOU - You should have the power - i.e., the RESPONSIBILITY to make and BE RESPONSIBLE for your OWN choices.
Maybe the poll would be
Maybe the poll would be clearer with this video that inspired it. [video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ3NsLr1al0]
Certainly I agree that we all
Certainly I agree that we all make the choices that order our lives. No one controls your life unless you want them to. Saying "God made me or wants me to do something" is surely a cop-out in my humble opinion. Humans have been given the gift of intellectual thought, the opportunity of evolution and the ability to distinguish right from wrong. We are not little worker ants, as some would have us believe. That's not what I was getting at, I'm saying that if one chooses to follow a religion, then there are certain ways you "live your life", certain laws to live by. It was just the first answer I searched for when I looked at the poll. As in "Servant of God".
The part people have problems
The part people have problems with Dave is when one of the other entities you mentioned gives you a law that contradicts what God wishes have been indicated as. I argue as passionately as anyone here for gun ownership. But as Irene points out I took responsibility, I lawfully sold my pistol and gave up my permit, (which I got in onondaga county) because when I moved to Ithaca NY and found myself in a confrontational type job, I knew having a pistol permit could lead to a situation. I still have my rifle and shotgun, but those need to be unlocked from their rack the keys of which are in a safe. I know my temperment and those of who I had to deal with. My choice at the time was the wiser. Now I know I could never get that permit again with the new rules and the character of those who give the permits in this county.
Speaking indirectly about our lawful Govt ( LOL ) I came across an interesting article. Are we living in a republic or a democracy, I believe the Constitution established us a Republic as our pledge of alliegence states. But this article legally defines republic vs democracy then makes an interesting commentary. So let me seed the convo with an excerpt the post the link as I think it relates greatly to these discussions we have been having lately.
A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.
Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]
Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]
Link: http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm
Note: this is republic vs democracy discussion NOT Republican vs Democrat but the comparison might be interesting.
Bet I get more negative votes
Bet I get more negative votes than Doug today w this one
Howard, we impose rulers upon
Howard, we impose rulers upon other people every day by voting. Not everyone agrees with the majority vote.
Illegal Mexican aliens really are the modern day slave in this country. Our officials want to to grant them citizenship but not the right to vote. The employers of illegals have no interest other than to exploit them.
Our officials don't have the right to murder or enslave or steal, but they do that to every one of us every day. Don't pay your taxes and see how quickly you realize your slave status and how willing the government is to steal from you. Fail to register for the draft and you'll quickly find out how the government feels that it has the right to murder you.
Many people also don't believe that their life belongs to them. They believe it belongs to zod or god or mohammed or wonder woman. Those kinds of beliefs breed fanaticism and division, not unity.
Using governmental force to impose a vision on others is intellectual sloth. When someone knocks on my door to try and impose their vision upon me, I call them annoying Jehova's.
The problem isn't that people
The problem isn't that people do not seek liberty, the problem in society today is that too many people are willing to forsake some liberty in exchange for perceived security and/or piece of mind.
Religion is not the problem Doug, the manipulation of religion to justify an a agenda is the problem. If one is truly a Christian, they would not judge another who is not, because if you truly believe, you realize that it is God that judges. The basic tenet of Christianity is that you have free will, to choose to do what your faith demands or not too. It is then a matter of consequence as a Christian believes that God will judge them based on how they live their lives. It is no different in reality than personal responsibility for choices and actions that you choose in a secular society. The biggest miscalculation that some religious people make is believing that God will care for you in your life on earth, free will or freedom in your life also bares responsibility and consequence.
With civil liberty, it is in my view exactly the same thing, you should be free to do most anything you want, but you must be willing to face the consequence for your actions.
There will always be evil or bad people or what ever, all that a law should do is provide a consequence for actions that harm others. Our problem in society is that way too many see laws as a way to prevent behavior harmful to others, those that would harm, others are likely not to see any law as a deterrent, so that thinking in my opinion is flawed.
A true believer in most religions will see their faith as a guideline to conduct their own life and not impose their thought on others, likewise most people are good in heart and live with respect for others, all religions have zealots who twist their faith for agenda, and all societies have an element that show no respect for others.
It is not religion that divides, it is those who hide behind it, we do not need laws to protect us from our selves, we need laws that punish those who disregard our own freedoms.
Marks answer about free will
Marks answer about free will and God also explains alot about some of the things that people who literally interpet the Bible have issues with. Lying is a sin, but if you lie to a child or a mother because you want to spare them some pain or trauma over something. You dont think God knows our intent behind our actions, nothing is truly black and white except for the text on these pages.
And that refrences the actual text, not it's content. lol
I think my libertarian roots
I think my libertarian roots began in Sunday School.
At my Nazarene Church we were taught that evil exists in the world because we were given free will to accept or reject God.
Love can only be freely given. God is powerful enough to force us to be good and worship him, but it's not really love if we're forced to do it.
My conclusion: If God loves us that much, who am I to presume to take God's place and tell others how to live their lives.
Laws are necessary to maintain order in a civil society, but if free will is to be properly understood, then laws should be at a minimum to ensure your rights don't trample my rights, nothing more.
It's not my place to tell you what size soda you can buy at the store and it's not your place to tell me what video games I should play. And that truth extends out to all facets of life.
As the video says, so long as I don't infringe on your freedom, such as stealing your property -- either directly or through government force -- then I should be free to live my life as I choose.
Mark, Kyle and Howard-It is
Mark, Kyle and Howard-It is so refreshing to hear someone say such intelligent and unbiased things. Many times people fail to differentiate between the true intent of their religion and the intent of the flawed person delivering the message. Every religion talks about being good to yourself and others and something along the lines of "don't throw stones if you live in glass houses." I have met some of the nicest and some not so nice from almost every religion. The difference has always been the way that the faith is twisted to meet an agenda. I wish more people could speak like the 3 of you! Please note I would have given each of you more than 1 thumbs up if possible lol
Living your life after GOD's
Living your life after GOD's wishes still is a me, myself and I vote. You elect to live your life that way. Even GOD states to follow the laws of man. Even thought our government is establishing laws without the Peoples' approval. The government wants to control the people and not the people controlling the government.
Glad to see a civil
Glad to see a civil conversation without the name calling, bullying and just down right childishness that appears in other comment sections! That said I am curious to hear from those that chose "government/ Society" on why they feel that way......
LOL Shannon thats the first
LOL Shannon thats the first time I've been on that side of a comment like that
Seems to me that some of the
Seems to me that some of the of the nearly 65% who voted the first option should consider coming out to one of our meetings! The next one is this coming Monday at 6:30 at Coffee Culture! We'd love to have you!
I was thinking the same thing
I was thinking the same thing before reading your comment Phil. It seems that 2 out of every 3 survey respondents on the Batavian are Libertarians. Sort of renews my faith in the human race :-)