Today's Poll: Would you support a single-payer health plan for New York?

If the question is: Do I want to place my healthcare in the hands of the dysfunctional NY State government - the answer is a definite NO!

I agree with Wayne, after reading Douglas Turner's column. The sponsor of the bill wants to create a Health Authority. We don't need more "Authorities" in NY, no matter how noble the reason, we need less. I'm not against single-payer health care per-se, but trusting it to oversight from our state legislature? I don't think so.

I'll do it, Howard! Breast implants for all!!!!

Happy Belated Birthday by the way! Sorry I missed it.

Single payer is a good idea, but necessary on a national level to be effective. The federal government should deal with health care and national security, and leave everything else to the states.

Put Phil in charge, I like the way he thinks.

Actually Howard, I'm thinking a 4 to 5 year contract with some type of administrative/management company who would be directed to manage it through smaller regional divisions, maybe 8 to 12 of them. The contract would be re-bid openly after every term. The company would negotiate with providers and pharmaceutical companies. The company would be answerable to the Governor, and the Gov. would justify and negotiate their budget with the legislature. The parameters for care would be voted on by the legislature. A state wide approach won't work, it's too broad of a brush and an authority that answers to legislature has been proven to invite corruption and inefficiency.

This is just off the top of my head, I hadn't thought about it until an hour or so ago, so I'm sure there's holes to be poked into it.

Dave, your idea is good to a point. I don't like the idea that the legislature would vote on what is to be covered. They would be inclined to offer everything to everyone just to buy votes. Again, if I promise you something for free, out of the state treasury or will make somebody else pay, you'll probably vote for me. That's a part of the problems we have now.

On a different subject, the City School Budget vote is tomorrow, and I hope it is voted down.

Howard, I too am surprised at the polling so far. A recent George Mason University study ranked New York as the least free state in the union. A move to single payer would relinquish more control of our ability to choose when it comes to our healthcare decisions. And to agree with Wayne, turning control of anything more over to our inept state government must be met with a resounding NO!

Howard, Regarding the middle man issue, you control the costs by requiring competitive bidding every 4 or 5 years, or whatever length of time is deemed best, I think every year would not be efficient. Regarding the poll, I don't think people are opposed to government programs, if they work. It is my opinion that Obama's is not going to work, neither will Paul Ryan's medicare plan; both will continue to enrich insurance companies, corporate hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and continue the onus on employers to help insure their employees. People Want To Be Free!!!

John, I just don't want to see the parameters set by the Executive branch or a private company, the voter needs a say, I don't know how else to do it than let the Legislature work it out. I do see your point and don't have an idea about that at the moment. Anybody else have one? Regarding the school budget, my first thought was "health districts" kind of like school districts with a locally elected board, but not nearly as many districts. But after considering that, I rejected that idea, professional management is needed, and districting might lead to mandating what hospital or medical group you have to see or else pay a lot more. But I'd like to have the average person represented and participate as much as possible.

I fail to understand the connection between a single-payer system and losing choice in services or providers. Where does that notion come from? What choice does one have with private insurers? One has to pick from a list of participating providers. In my case, my doctor was not on the list, so I had to find a new doctor. One cannot see a specialist without referral from a primary care physician. The policy written by the private insurer determines which services are covered (or not covered).

The bottom line: how dedicated our we to the notion that private corporations must profit from our access to healthcare? Secondly, do we want CEOs, Boards of Directors and stockholders to determine our level of coverage/care or do we want a legislative body of our elected representatives to do so?

It's a fairly straight-forward call once you weed through the blarney and corporate disinformation.

Jeff; please consider that since you are a state employee, you have choices about your health care, the state plans are pretty good and it doesn't cost you as much. It's a lot different out here in the private sector. A lot.

The problem that I see for a Genesee County health care district is two-fold: 1) The average age in Genesee County is 40; the whole state, 35.9. The indication for Genesee is a significant elderly population with medical expenses
greater than those of lesser age. 2) Assuming a local district would NOT replace Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance; it would likely serve a limited number of people: those ineligible or unable to participate in the three-mentioned options. It would likely fall victim to claims that outpace funds, and it would likely exist as a second-class alternative to services the aforementioned public and private options secure.

Howard, I think that the health care district idea would lead to wanting to figure out ways to keep the district money inside the district, then maybe you've gotten costs down, which is good, but you don't have many choices about your care. Erie or Monroe counties probably will have more and better choices than Genesee, think about Wyoming, Cattaraugus or Allegheny counties or up in the Northland for example, their choices might be even worse. That's why I think regional districts would be better.

For instance a Western NY regional board made up of the 8 WNY counties, 9 person non-partisan board, 1 elected from each county and a chairman elected by the whole region.

Any plan that takes health care out of the states hands is a good start.

Howard, it would if you needed a treatment that your district didn't cover/offer or ended up with a post surgical infection (because your appendectomy was performed at Joe-Bob's cut-rate clinic and taxidermy).

Dave, you are correct, I have several choices, choice is good and I don't want the state coming in and taking that choice away. I don't want health insurance "redistribution" so that I get less just so that all can get a little. There is a need for health insurance reform, single payer is not it.
Howard, my work with the VA and taking care of all my dad's healthcare through them has shown me that the government is the absolute last entity I want making my healthcare decisions. You want to talk about limitations in care, limitations on covered prescriptions, and miles of red tape, then the VA is prime example one. I must add the following caveat, every employee below the level of Dr. that I have dealt with in the VA system has been top notch. I get the impression that they realize who their clients are and work harder to get through the bloated bureaucracy.

I think a contract with a private company to be competitively bid at renewal is the best way to go. Trying to consider all the contingencies is giving me a headache, which leads me to conclude that government should just get out of health care and open up competitive marketing of health insurance (along with all other insurances like car, house, life) across state lines which will bring the costs down, stop offering it to our government employees, take the onus off of employers and let everyone buy the best insurance for their personal situation. We can provide health care for the elderly who have lower incomes and our veterans. That's much less red tape.

Both of todays discussions sound like the ones I have with my family on Thanksgiving.

All of my relatives seem to work for the government and those that don't are sucking up a government pension. What they do is complain about wasteful government spending and socialized medicine. Meanwhile they are all on the dole with government health plans better than mine but, they say the government can't seem to be able to run a health care plan for the rest of us.. If you ask them how their plan is they just love it and brag without end.

Charlie, just for the record, the NYS employee health plans are not run or administered by the state. In fact, the state has contracts with a number of private companies to provide insurance. And it is not free for workers or retirees.

You may or may not like what the state offers, but my point is the insurance is not government run.

John said, And it is not free for workers or retirees.

No but it's a fraction of what I pay, John. I have seen way too many contracts where the contribution over three to four months doesn't add up to what I pay in one.

Who cares who administers them...I care more about who pays for them.

Phil, the point was that Charlie had implied the plan was run by the state, and it is not.

As for cost of health care for public employees, you better vote out the school board members next year because the teachers pay less than state workers.

The School Board Members have nothing to do with the teacher's contracts, John. I hope you're not seriously telling people that?

And I was talking about state workers as well.

Phil, you were talking about cost and who pays. I didn't want you to leave our local school district out. And the School Board does have everything to do with contracts. They set the parameters. They are the ones who vote to accept or reject a contract along with the union.

Who do you think has the final say on school contracts on the administrations side?

John,

You see here's your problem. The Board sets the parameters for contracts, just like the budget. They do not negotiate it, or have any power with the terms. Just like the budget they have no control over 75% of it's funds. Yes John, they do have the ability to vote it down, but there is so much more to it. And still people like you, who by the way have no involvement or understanding in the process speak as if you know something,

You feed out misinformation constantly and it is absolutely infuriating. The day you actually show up, listen to the process, have an actual understanding of what these VOLUNTEERS go through, or hell run yourself...I'll actually take something you say seriously.

You want the budget to fail tomorrow. Well, excuse me if I find your logic to be garbage. I don't want to pay an extra percent so you can prove a point. I don't have a nice government job that, thanks to contracts, gets me raises every year. I have been on a pay freeze for the past three years, even though my costs go up.

Phil - Last I knew, you worked for Bank of America, who took TARP funds. Hope you enjoy living on taxpayers money because the institution that you worked for crashed due to gross incompetence.

I'm not trying to be nasty either, I'm just pointing out the double standard that you have. You call for the need to end the status quo and then support the school board without reservation. You accuse people of feeding misinformation when they are simply saying that they disagree with you. You get furious when people criticize you but you use ad hominem attacks without reservation. It's really a chore debating with someone who cannot just have a reasonable disagreement, but takes everything that anyone says in disagreement in such a personal way as you do.

John simply pointed out that the board could accept or decline to accept a teacher's union contract.

John also worked in a prison, risked himself daily and earned his keep via sweat equity.

Dan, what exactly is your point?

Dave - Phil criticized John for working for the government. Like most glibertarians, his anti-government anger only applies when it's convenient. I was simply pointing out the double standard. If Phil had that much of a disdain for government employees then he should have quit working for BoA because he is indirectly working for a company that stayed afloat via government subsidies.

Libertarian = Someone with strong anti-government biases.

Glibertarian = Someone with strong anti-government biases only when they aren't collecting their keep from the government.

....and I agree with Howard. School board members do not have to vote to accept a union contract.

Nice Try Daniel. You obviously didn't follow or know very little of the entire situation that happened.

The TARP money was paid back with interest less than a year after received, and the gross incompetence was not committed by my bank. Did you know that? Did you know that if Bank of America didn't buy Countrywide when they did that economy would have crashed even harder and earlier? Did you know that if BOA didn't buy Merrill when they did that it would have fallen within weeks, causing millions more to lose everything they had? And did you know that all of the negative press we have taken due to mortgages has come from Countrywide's acidic loans and not ours?

Regardless, my private company put us on a pay freeze to hold off the storm, so I didn't see a dime of that money, but don't worry you're not the first person to say those things, to walk in and yell at my part time single mother tellers. It's all that reading and listening to a sensationalized media. Good one.

So just to clarify, because John worked in a prison and I didn't..what? Do you know what I do, what I've done? Do you know the first thing about anything? I understand that you are Pro Union, but it doesn't change the fact that I do not want, or can afford an additional tax increase because people are angry. Angry doesn't fix anything.

You of all people, Daniel should know that. You saw first hand some of the complexities of what went into these budgets.

Glibertarian...That's cute.

Like most glibertarians, his anti-government anger only applies when it's convenient.

Can you please show me when I've been for more government Daniel?

Howard,

You're all right they could have voted it down. I guess my point is this, there is a lot more to it than just saying that, and it's complete crap that everyone who is so vocal about the end result has nothing to add during the process.

This isn't Washington, this is little Batavia. You don't have to be just on the BOE to be involved. Coming out and being mad at the final number, but doing nothing to fix it is not only irresponsible, it's cowardly. If you think you can do something, then do it. I'm tired of listening to complaining, but no one actually acting.

Phil - I am well aware that the TARP money has been paid back with interest, by all accounts, TARP was a smashing success that saved the free market and actually netted the federal government money. However, I was not the one criticizing people for taking government money and pensions. You should hold true to your beliefs, if you really disagree with John's ability to criticize other governmental employees, you as an employee of a company that stayed afloat due to governmental subsidies should not be criticizing others due to their governmental positions.

Sigh, I was not discussing you when I discussed John's time as a prison guard. I was pointing out that he had more than earned his pay and pension. You're right, I am not part of the crowd that thinks that everyone should have it as miserably as they do.

I am pro-labor, but if you haven't been noticing, I've been supporting Governor Cuomo and others in their battles with public sector unions such as NYSUT. Spending has to come down and a property tax cap is needed with mandate relief.

Finally, I saw the complexity of those budgets first hand, so I know that the board does not have the powerless position that you and other apologists say that it does. The board could set much tougher parameters for teacher contracts, make more efforts to cut down on waste (like letting all outside groups use school facilities for free) and start demanding better accountability from administrators in terms of rankings/test scores.

Phil, you are a glibertarian, you support bloated school board budgets while attacking government employee pensions and while defending a company that took TARP money, which is the government using its influence in the market.

I do not make the mistake of claiming ideological purity, I am a moderate Democrat (and proud of my party) with progressive inclinations on some things (health care, the environment, marriage equality and income taxes) and conservative inclinations on others (gun control, abortion and business/capitol gains taxes). I fall left of center, but I would never claim allegiance strict ideology. I am much more a believer in solutions.

Accusing others of putting up straw men = Howard Owens' favorite straw man. :)

Phil - I also found your honesty during the marriage equality debate to be refreshing, as it was watching so many other libertarians join forces with us who also support marriage equality. That being said, I think that when you criticize others for associating with/working for/being part of the government/local status quo, there is a double standard inherent in what you are doing.

Dan,

You said, You should hold true to your beliefs, if you really disagree with John's ability to criticize other governmental employees, you as an employee of a company that stayed afloat due to governmental subsidies should not be criticizing others due to their governmental positions.

There is one very simplistic way of thought here. This situation happened while I worked there, I didn't join the company knowing that they were going to accept those funds. In fact, the main reason why our company paid it back so quick was due to the push back within it's own walls.

That said, telling me that I should have quit is amusing, and the type a thing that a young person with little responsibilities, or understanding or responsibilities can say. I had two children, a mortgage and countless other bills at the time in an economy that was crumbling. My personal disdain for the situation had to be swallowed.

To be fully open, I was actually laid off as well. Bless fully, I was pulled back in. During that time though, Daniel while I was going through that, many of these labor groups not only continued to receive raises, but other benefits as well. I'm a Glibertarian for that? Fine.

Oh and when you said...Finally, I saw the complexity of those budgets first hand, so I know that the board does not have the powerless position that you and other apologists say that it does. The board could set much tougher parameters for teacher contracts, make more efforts to cut down on waste (like letting all outside groups use school facilities for free) and start demanding better accountability from administrators in terms of rankings/test scores.

I'm not an apologist, because I didn't create the mess. I also do not support a "bloated" budget, and I have also been a huge proponent for school consolidation and many other cost saving measures. The board has set very tough parameters, but then they cut more funding away, so again there is more to it. And Again, I don't see anyone actually helping.

Phil, sort wish I had not gone to bed early.

You cry about government employee health care cost and tunneled visioned yourself on the State. I did not disagree with you on it, but only pointed out that it is not run and operated by the state.

But you seem to be in denial when asked to look at more local government health care cost also and not at just one level. It has not been that long since some school employees have even had to even pay a share of their cost.

And nice try defending the school budget. We all know much of it is mandated by the state. I also believe there is still waste. I believe there will be no real change with the present board and will work to see 3 new people on it next year.

As for the prison, I started out as a Correction Officer and retired 36 years later and a supervisor in the Counseling Department. I also served 33 years in the Army/Army Reserve.

And like the school system, how much we paid for insurance was part of our voted on state labor contract.

Dan appears to be right, you are selective in which level of government your angry at.

And I will vote NO today.

John,

You said, But you seem to be in denial when asked to look at more local government health care cost also and not at just one level. It has not been that long since some school employees have even had to even pay a share of their cost.

No denial here. This is a huge opportunity that will have to be addressed in this year's negotiation.

Let me be clear here. There is a lot of things that are going to have to be done to get the spending down. I have been a huge proponent of that and will be again. What I am saying is that there is more to it than just arbitrary one liners that you like to throw out. It's easy to sit back and criticize when you know nothing of the process and point out what works and what doesn't. Be in it.

As for your service, Thank You. I don't want my words to belittle that and if they did, I apologize.

My beef is that I hear a lot of people who like to criticize the way things are, but they are in the same type of system. I find that more than a little hypocritical.

As for varying levels of anger at different levels of government. I feel that I have expressed my dissatisfaction enough here locally to disprove that statement flatly.

Phil, are you referring to the school employee contract when you mention a huge opportunity? If so, that is what I referred to when saying the BOE is the key. Based on what they have negotiated in the past, that is why I will work to change the BOE next year.

As for people "in the system" who criticize the that same system, maybe they see the waste, fraud and abuse better than some others. I don't find that hypocritical.

Regarding the health care issue. I'm not hoping for re-distribution or not trying to infer anybody who works anywhere does or does not deserve what they have. I would like to point out that there are stark differences. Under the current system it is increasingly harder to afford the better plans for most employers, if at all. I work for a very small, family owned and operated firm (not my family) and the owners are committed to helping us with health coverage. It's getting tougher and tougher to even find a decent plan that is interested enough in a small company to offer us group rates, let alone afford it. While I see my costs go up, my boss takes a pay cut to help offset those rising premiums and I struggle to bring in business, so i can even keep my job. I have to listen to public employees pitch fits over co-pays and removal of excessive riders to health care insurance. That doesn't mean I think all public employees should lose coverage, or should accept less so we can all be miserable together (paraphrased from above). Or that I think they all scamming the system, I know it's not true.

If we are ever going to have a grown-up discussion about this issue, everyones side has to be considered. This is America, this is New York, This is Genesee County. A very innovative and leading county (Genesee Justice, Mancuso's Business Incubator, Holland Land Company, The Batavian, NY State School for the Blind, All the innovations from GCC) in the greatest state in the greatest country in the world. Hands Down. A solution can be figured out and we can help it get going, right here. I believe that. But, we have to get above our differences and embrace the various and diverse experiences.

Labels suck, they divide people and make them afraid to comment & add to the discussion lest they appear hypocritical. This strict partisanship is tearing our country apart, & our state apart.. Stop letting that garbage block open debate or discussion.

Before we get back to the issue at hand....Phil -

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"That said, telling me that I should have quit is amusing, and the type a thing that a young person with little responsibilities, or understanding or responsibilities can say. I had two children, a mortgage and countless other bills at the time in an economy that was crumbling. My personal disdain for the situation had to be swallowed."

Well aren't you just a cute internet warrior for bringing up my age. Here's the thing Phil, I'm self employed, mantain an apartment and pay all of my own bills. You're right, I don't have a mortgage or kids, but if I don't pay my rent I get evicted. This is part of a pattern with you though, whenever someone calls you out on a double standard you immediately make it personal via a personal attack. I still remember how you went ballistic when a few people on The Batavian brought up the fact that you wanted to gut the nursing home but that your wife worked for GCASA, you immediately made it into how you were the victim of a personal smear campaign when in reality people were just pointing out the hypocrisy. You also accuse others of being personal when you throw around your own share of hyperbole "What do you know about anything?" is a pretty good example.

Your attitude throughout this and other conversations is amusing. You attack personally and then complain about being attacked personally. All that I did was bring up a double standard and you grasped for straws by bringing up my age, my views on labor unions and my time as the student member on the board. I think this sums you up pretty well.

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And your MO Daniel is twisting words to fit your point. That Poly Sci degree is doing you well. :-)

I haven't complained once about your points, and I'm not the only "internet warrior", Daniel with your cutsie little "Glibertarian" catch phrases.

In 2009 when all of what you brought up happened, you were in college as I recall. Yes I pointed out that it's easy for someone who has little responsibilities to be so..."whatever" about stuff like...jobs. I had more than just ideology to think about.

Congrats on your new place and your business BTW! I didn't know that you did that. What's it in? I wish you success!

Oh and real quick...I never talked about gutting the nursing home. When those involved didn't like what I said they tried to bring my wife's job into it. Like because I supported GCASA's mission (My mother died of alcoholism) it somehow lessened my opinion. When I wouldn't respond they pressed. You see Dan, I don't talk about people's families when I have a debate. That would be like me saying something about your parents while you and I are mencing words. It's disrespectful.

Anyway! Thanks Daniel for the back and forth! I'll be offline for the rest of the day with work.