I've been thinking...why is cost per student around 15000 at public schools, yet a fine, quality(better?) education can be obtained at Aquinas Institute in Rochester for half that? And don't give me any BS that public schools have more to offer. That place has everything..computer labs, new athletic facilities, small class sizes, not to mention 99% go on to college. I would like an answer. Can any administrators answer? How about some union teachers? Hmmmm, awful quiet....that silence tells me that they know it can be done for less, but the unions and management alike don't want to give up their place at the trough.
Awfully quiet because they are all working duh... Bud, first off I think your numbers are wrong. Second, public ed does have more to offer and it is offered to everybody, no matter what socioeconomic background. Rich or poor, teachers work hard to get these kids to succeed. The graduation rate is different because some kids/ families don't give a crap and don't value education. " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink..."
Why is the focus always on money? It's not all about the money, and it can't necessarily be done for less. It's about the audience. One disruptive student can throw an entire class behind. One kid not keeping pace with the course load can slow everyone else down.
If you really want to cherry pick a feeder school like Aquinas to make a point, why haven't you done the equivalent with public schools. Such places as City Honors in Buffalo? Where do Pittsford Sutherland and Mendon factor in? HFL? How about Williamsville East? City Honors and both Pittsford schools are top 100 nationwide.
As the trend goes, everyone wants to place blame - more often than not, it is placed where most convenient and easy... some classes in BMS, and probably high school as well, no longer even hand out text books because the students destroy them. They are taken out overnight, and returned the next day. I bet it's the teachers and the unions fault that nobody has taught the children to respect other peoples property... right?
Come on Bud, let's be fair about the information you're giving out. Aquinas also receives fairly substantial donations, including $10 million from Bob Wegman not to long ago, part of which went in to the athletic fields that you mentioned. That sum of money would be about 25% of the BCSD's entire budget for a given year.
And the 99% college rate? Of course it's that high. FAPE doesn't apply to a private school. And just looking at the statistics would dictate that a school like Batavia could never match that because they get 4 or 5% who join the military every year. Of course, you'd never argue that doing that would be bad, would you?
Howard, now would be a great time to update those figures so we can see what kind of raises the
administrators get a year. I know Mix is now in the lead earning $220-230k...
There are many problems with the public schools. All of them.
The Department of Education needs to be removed. Since its inception schools in America have fallen behind the rest of the world. At its peak in 1969 (prior to the DoE) the graduation rate in the nation was 77%. In 2007 it was 68.8%
Math and Science scores in the US lag behind most of the industrialized world.
What has the DoE done for students other than cost their parents more money? It is failing our kids and is a waste of our money. And it is not an outlined function of the federal government.
Pittsford, Sutherland and Mendon public high schools are mentioned as being some of the finest in the nation and they are. For what it's worth, they are also located in an area with a lot of wealthy and educated denizens who put a premium on higher education and what it takes to get there.
I've driven by those high school parking lots. There are ample numbers of cars like BMW, Lexus, new Mustangs, etc. I think it's ridiculous, not to mention pretentious, but hey, it's a free country.
Students who want to succeed can overcome odds that aren't in their favor. Parents should indulge their children less and raise the bar on their expectations. That would help.
My point is...why can a private entity, outside of government authority, provide, (for arguments sake)a comparable education for half the cost?
And from 2007 NY Times:
"New York State spent $14,119 per student — more than any other state in the nation — in the 2005 fiscal year, according to a national analysis of public school spending that the Census Bureau released today."
I may be low in my assessment of $15,000 per student.
The anti-voucher argument, as I remember it, is essentially collectivist.
If you take the money out of the public schools, then the public schools would have fewer resources to help those who can't fit into, say, a private or charter school, for whatever reason.
I believe you could throw all the money in the world at our schools and not change a thing. Ultimately, if the parents do not take time to work with their kids, or at least make education a priority in their household, then nothing will ever improve.
I completely understand that people get run over by life and circumstances, but the education of their kids has to remain a top priority. Our society has become complacent with our public school system and there is a misconception out there that it is completely the teacher's responsibility to educate our children.
The only reason why private schools like Aquinas are successful is because the people who send their children there are fully invested in their education. Generally speaking, these families are better off financially, which makes the focus on education much easier; BUT even the children of the poorest family can succeed in school if that is where emphasis is placed.
Tim, I agree 100%. The reason why schools like Notre Dame get the results they get while spending around $7500 per child and public schools get mixed results spending $16000 per child is because of family committment to education.
The folly of throwing more money at public schools is that the results won't change even if they spent $50,000 per child.
"In education, New York public schools spend
more per student than any other state — fully 71
percent more than the national average, yet New York
ranks 40th in the rate of high school graduation."
Also, schools like Aquinas have an application process. They can, and do, take the best. And if a student turns out to be trouble, or lacks in ethics or morality they don't have to keep them, and they don't.
Most of these comments hit the nail on the head. If families are not vested in their child's education, how can we ever hope to see the success rates that are shown in the private sector? I agree that spending $50000 per student is not going to be the end all save all solution. But how does cutting spending on good teachers fix anything? Take those poor performing students with all of their baggage and increase class sizes to 30+ students and now not only are they failing but they are bringing down the average student who is sitting next to them as well. I am sure keeping 20 high school kids focus and productive is hard enough, increase class sizes and have the trouble makers all together will just make a bad situation worse...
Class size has a huge impact on student performance. There are hundreds of resources out there to prove it. Cutting from our teachers is not the right answer. Look at the results of this pole... Administrators need to be kept in check... Mix- Pembroke- $230,000 for a rural superintendent-crazy... I would love a Pembroke board member to comment and defend this decision, and then explain why they have to cut teachers.
If I could make an observation as well.... Schools need a little restructuring on how to handle students that are hindering the process as well. In my high school days which were in the 80's alot of troublemakers and delinquents were kept in classes, I even remember a teacher being suspended for "speaking" harshly to a student after having been cussed at and such.
As others have pointed out though there are alot of other facets to this, we need to take them all into consideration.
Teacher and administrator pay, disruptive students and excessive spending (as our DS Puzio has demonstrated) I'm not sure if family or parental support is as critical as it's being made. I had such but struggled, and a few friends I remember had no support when and if their parents were home or had time, did honors work.
common sense and practical approach would eliminate some of these problems.
If the teacher interested in a paycheck and not teaching were put together in a classroom of the troublemakers hand picked out of the other classes then you might be doing the majority some good. The precedent that is starting in Wisconsin might show that teachers arent gonna be able to demand such high salaries and such cushy benefits as well. All we can do is plug away at this problem and if Cuomo keeps his actions up we might be able to shake out alot of the problems. Its gonna hurt and be uncomfortable. At least until the chaff is separated and the whole settles into the leaner and meaner system.
Roughly 65-75 percent of a school budget is wages and compensation. There are savings to be achieved in other areas, but when you get right down to it, the largest section of a budget is often where there is the most contention.
What really grinds my gears is that I am truly devoted to education for my kids and was anxious to get my 4-yr old into Universal Pre-K at Alexander Elementary this past Fall. Unfortunately, there were not enough seats for all the kids and we were put through a lottery draw. Ultimately, my son was not chosen but I (lucky me!) had the option of putting him into some religious pre-k class which I would have had to pay for! I pay school taxes, how in the world can they get away with turning my child away?
Amen, Angela! I own two different pieces of property, pay school taxes on both and have never put a single child through any school system. I'm feeling a bit ripped off.
No cuts. If necessary, raise
No cuts. If necessary, raise taxes 6.25% (6 votes)
You people who voted this are masochists. You already have one of the heftiest tax burdens in the nation.
Bud i have a feeling those 6
Bud i have a feeling those 6 people don't pay property taxes....
I've been thinking...why is
I've been thinking...why is cost per student around 15000 at public schools, yet a fine, quality(better?) education can be obtained at Aquinas Institute in Rochester for half that? And don't give me any BS that public schools have more to offer. That place has everything..computer labs, new athletic facilities, small class sizes, not to mention 99% go on to college. I would like an answer. Can any administrators answer? How about some union teachers? Hmmmm, awful quiet....that silence tells me that they know it can be done for less, but the unions and management alike don't want to give up their place at the trough.
Awfully quiet because they
Awfully quiet because they are all working duh... Bud, first off I think your numbers are wrong. Second, public ed does have more to offer and it is offered to everybody, no matter what socioeconomic background. Rich or poor, teachers work hard to get these kids to succeed. The graduation rate is different because some kids/ families don't give a crap and don't value education. " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink..."
Why is the focus always on
Why is the focus always on money? It's not all about the money, and it can't necessarily be done for less. It's about the audience. One disruptive student can throw an entire class behind. One kid not keeping pace with the course load can slow everyone else down.
If you really want to cherry pick a feeder school like Aquinas to make a point, why haven't you done the equivalent with public schools. Such places as City Honors in Buffalo? Where do Pittsford Sutherland and Mendon factor in? HFL? How about Williamsville East? City Honors and both Pittsford schools are top 100 nationwide.
As the trend goes, everyone wants to place blame - more often than not, it is placed where most convenient and easy... some classes in BMS, and probably high school as well, no longer even hand out text books because the students destroy them. They are taken out overnight, and returned the next day. I bet it's the teachers and the unions fault that nobody has taught the children to respect other peoples property... right?
http://thebatavian.com/blogs/
http://thebatavian.com/blogs/howard-owens/25-highest-paid-public-employ…
Take a good hard look at these salaries and you tell me where we should make cuts.
Come on Bud, let's be fair
Come on Bud, let's be fair about the information you're giving out. Aquinas also receives fairly substantial donations, including $10 million from Bob Wegman not to long ago, part of which went in to the athletic fields that you mentioned. That sum of money would be about 25% of the BCSD's entire budget for a given year.
And the 99% college rate? Of course it's that high. FAPE doesn't apply to a private school. And just looking at the statistics would dictate that a school like Batavia could never match that because they get 4 or 5% who join the military every year. Of course, you'd never argue that doing that would be bad, would you?
Great post Rich. Howard,
Great post Rich.
Howard, now would be a great time to update those figures so we can see what kind of raises the
administrators get a year. I know Mix is now in the lead earning $220-230k...
There are many problems with
There are many problems with the public schools. All of them.
The Department of Education needs to be removed. Since its inception schools in America have fallen behind the rest of the world. At its peak in 1969 (prior to the DoE) the graduation rate in the nation was 77%. In 2007 it was 68.8%
Math and Science scores in the US lag behind most of the industrialized world.
What has the DoE done for students other than cost their parents more money? It is failing our kids and is a waste of our money. And it is not an outlined function of the federal government.
Pittsford, Sutherland and
Pittsford, Sutherland and Mendon public high schools are mentioned as being some of the finest in the nation and they are. For what it's worth, they are also located in an area with a lot of wealthy and educated denizens who put a premium on higher education and what it takes to get there.
I've driven by those high school parking lots. There are ample numbers of cars like BMW, Lexus, new Mustangs, etc. I think it's ridiculous, not to mention pretentious, but hey, it's a free country.
Students who want to succeed can overcome odds that aren't in their favor. Parents should indulge their children less and raise the bar on their expectations. That would help.
My point is...why can a
My point is...why can a private entity, outside of government authority, provide, (for arguments sake)a comparable education for half the cost?
And from 2007 NY Times:
"New York State spent $14,119 per student — more than any other state in the nation — in the 2005 fiscal year, according to a national analysis of public school spending that the Census Bureau released today."
I may be low in my assessment of $15,000 per student.
Bud, You're talking about
Bud,
You're talking about school vouchers, something the teacher lobby is not in favor of.
What better way to separate
What better way to separate those that are truly passionate for their profession from the paycheck collectors. What is the anti-voucher argument?
The anti-voucher argument, as
The anti-voucher argument, as I remember it, is essentially collectivist.
If you take the money out of the public schools, then the public schools would have fewer resources to help those who can't fit into, say, a private or charter school, for whatever reason.
I believe you could throw all
I believe you could throw all the money in the world at our schools and not change a thing. Ultimately, if the parents do not take time to work with their kids, or at least make education a priority in their household, then nothing will ever improve.
I completely understand that people get run over by life and circumstances, but the education of their kids has to remain a top priority. Our society has become complacent with our public school system and there is a misconception out there that it is completely the teacher's responsibility to educate our children.
The only reason why private schools like Aquinas are successful is because the people who send their children there are fully invested in their education. Generally speaking, these families are better off financially, which makes the focus on education much easier; BUT even the children of the poorest family can succeed in school if that is where emphasis is placed.
Tim, I agree 100%. The
Tim, I agree 100%. The reason why schools like Notre Dame get the results they get while spending around $7500 per child and public schools get mixed results spending $16000 per child is because of family committment to education.
The folly of throwing more money at public schools is that the results won't change even if they spent $50,000 per child.
This is from AndrewCuomo.
This is from AndrewCuomo. com
"In education, New York public schools spend
more per student than any other state — fully 71
percent more than the national average, yet New York
ranks 40th in the rate of high school graduation."
Also, schools like Aquinas have an application process. They can, and do, take the best. And if a student turns out to be trouble, or lacks in ethics or morality they don't have to keep them, and they don't.
Most of these comments hit
Most of these comments hit the nail on the head. If families are not vested in their child's education, how can we ever hope to see the success rates that are shown in the private sector? I agree that spending $50000 per student is not going to be the end all save all solution. But how does cutting spending on good teachers fix anything? Take those poor performing students with all of their baggage and increase class sizes to 30+ students and now not only are they failing but they are bringing down the average student who is sitting next to them as well. I am sure keeping 20 high school kids focus and productive is hard enough, increase class sizes and have the trouble makers all together will just make a bad situation worse...
Class size has a huge impact on student performance. There are hundreds of resources out there to prove it. Cutting from our teachers is not the right answer. Look at the results of this pole... Administrators need to be kept in check... Mix- Pembroke- $230,000 for a rural superintendent-crazy... I would love a Pembroke board member to comment and defend this decision, and then explain why they have to cut teachers.
http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/ClassSize/academic.html
Mark, I enjoyed your
Mark, I enjoyed your perspective!
If I could make an
If I could make an observation as well.... Schools need a little restructuring on how to handle students that are hindering the process as well. In my high school days which were in the 80's alot of troublemakers and delinquents were kept in classes, I even remember a teacher being suspended for "speaking" harshly to a student after having been cussed at and such.
As others have pointed out though there are alot of other facets to this, we need to take them all into consideration.
Teacher and administrator pay, disruptive students and excessive spending (as our DS Puzio has demonstrated) I'm not sure if family or parental support is as critical as it's being made. I had such but struggled, and a few friends I remember had no support when and if their parents were home or had time, did honors work.
common sense and practical approach would eliminate some of these problems.
If the teacher interested in a paycheck and not teaching were put together in a classroom of the troublemakers hand picked out of the other classes then you might be doing the majority some good. The precedent that is starting in Wisconsin might show that teachers arent gonna be able to demand such high salaries and such cushy benefits as well. All we can do is plug away at this problem and if Cuomo keeps his actions up we might be able to shake out alot of the problems. Its gonna hurt and be uncomfortable. At least until the chaff is separated and the whole settles into the leaner and meaner system.
Roughly 65-75 percent of a
Roughly 65-75 percent of a school budget is wages and compensation. There are savings to be achieved in other areas, but when you get right down to it, the largest section of a budget is often where there is the most contention.
What really grinds my gears
What really grinds my gears is that I am truly devoted to education for my kids and was anxious to get my 4-yr old into Universal Pre-K at Alexander Elementary this past Fall. Unfortunately, there were not enough seats for all the kids and we were put through a lottery draw. Ultimately, my son was not chosen but I (lucky me!) had the option of putting him into some religious pre-k class which I would have had to pay for! I pay school taxes, how in the world can they get away with turning my child away?
Amen, Angela! I own two
Amen, Angela! I own two different pieces of property, pay school taxes on both and have never put a single child through any school system. I'm feeling a bit ripped off.