Why should they be counted while incarcerated? My understanding is they have no legal rights while prisoners of the state. If they are to be counted, it is only fair they are counted where they are physically located.
I think this is kind of trivial. Just like Bud mentioned about them having no legal rights while a prisoner of the state. So if it's not the prisoners vote that the politicians are concerned with what is it?
66% of New York State Department of Corrections' 57,481
prisoners are from New York City while housed in upstate prisons. The federal census that determines congressional representation currently credits prison population to the place of incarceration. As New York battles for dwindling per capita political clout, these disenfranchised felons have become pawns in a power grab.
There are two sides to the coin- of course. Prison hosting locales cite the services they must provide, such as fire protection and medical. While New York City argues that relocation in the DOC system does not constitute change of official residence- especially when the cost of due process was footed by NYC.
Another facet of the impact of prison populations is illustrated in Oneida County politics. Oneida County includes 6,055 state prisoners in their legislative districting formula. 38% of the Marcy District is prison population; 33% of Westmoreland is likewise.
Since New York's prison population cannot vote (until discharged, parole obligation satisfied or executive clemency), arguing for a legitimate location for their civic voice is specious.
If prisoners are counted in congressional districting, should same apply to state and local districting formulae and visaversa?
Many years ago, I listened to a minister who was a chaplan for Attica. He complained, bitterly, about the unfair conditions the downstate prisoners were exposed to while incarcerated at Attica.
"Attica is too rural for metropolitan people." It seems that fresh air, and country environment were considered an additional punishment for those folks.
There is a large burden placed on local communities that have prisons. Consider the local areas of Albion and Attica. Both have two prisons that need water, sewage treatment and local road maintenance (just to name a few things). None of this is cheap and counting the inmates in the local area helps get money to pay for all of it.
Prisons are a boon to rural communities. Small towns lobby state and federal officials for prisons. In 1996, sixteen upstate communities were competing for three proposed new prisons. Robert Van Slyke, president of the Rome Area Chamber of Commerce, said, "When we heard the governor had proposed three new maximum-security prisons, we asked whether Rome could be considered." Antwerp, another small community in northern New York, applied for a $600,000 federal grant to rebuild their water-supply system to better their chances.
Every two weeks New York State Department of Corrections payroll adds $920,000 to local economies.
On the political side, witness the clamor when talk of closing prison facilities arises. Correctional facilities have spread throughout rural, Republican stretches of the state with dwindling legislative district populations (and jobs). The expansion was fueled by 1980s drug-crime boom, a Republican held Senate and a trade-off over then governor Cuomo's multiple vetoes of a death penalty bill. Not to ignore, inmates counted when maps were drawn for Senate and the Assembly districts.
When Spitzer replaced Pataki, he announced that he would close four prisons. Republicans controlled the State Senate, and Joe Bruno blocked the move- along with a prostitution scandal that vacated Spitzer. David A. Paterson sided with the Legislature to spend $34 million and keep the four prisons open. ...Although he did close three prison camps; he spared one in a Democratic represented district.
CM,
Patterson didn't spare a camp, he didn't have the votes from his party to close it. He still wants that unneeded camp closed.
Gov. Patterson also wants to close the medium security Ogdensburg Correctional Facility up on the St. Lawrence River. Let's see if the Democrats let him.
The Sing Sing Correctional Facility near NYC is also long past due to be closed, but guess which party says no?
Point is neither party want to close prisons because the other party will nail them for losing jobs and being soft on crime. Both sides do it.
There was one exception. When he first ran for governor, Mario Cuomo promised that if elected and if the Long Island area went for him, he would actually close the recently opened Pilgram Correctional Facility, whcih was not wanted by the locals. He won and he kept his word, closing it.
Disenfranchised felons is merely a statement of fact. They have no right to vote. The determination of their official residency is of value because it equates to distribution of revenue and political clout. I was answering Jeremiah Pedro's question- not expressing my opinion. I expressed my opinion when I voted in the poll.
John,
Are you asking Hawley the same questions?
If so, and since he refuses to participate in an online discussion, will you please post his responses here?
John,
Since you are one of Hawley's staunch supporters, one would think that you would want to post his position here.
It is my job to ask him questions when, and if, I am anywhere he is making a public appearance. Then, there is the possibility of not getting that opportunity, even if I attended
...and who will give that response? A staffer.
On here, Hawley - like CM - would be communicating directly with those with questions.
Not getting into a spitting match on this one. It would just be nice to see Steve put some time into chatting with us here on the site.
Bea,
I agree it would be nice to have Hawley post here, but if you get an answer even from a staffer, then you could post it here, right? So Bea,, why not try?
It would also be great if the State Senate candidates posted here
In my initial post on this subject I asked a question that has gone unanswered. Congressional, State Legislative or County Legislative districts could be considered. Would the author of the poll qualify the jurisdiction the poll addresses?
Bea, I'd be leery. John has excused Steve Hawley from posting here, assured you that Hawley-staffers are qualified to answer your question and pointed out that you can contact Steve on your very own telephone. Oddly, as much as John has clued you to all of this, he wants you to do the legwork. I think you're being taken advantage of.
CM,
Since Bea is on the City Democratic committee, I would think she would want to do everything she can to get her questions answered, don't you?
And where did I excuse Hawley from not posting here, or did you just make that up I said it would be nice if he did, and I have said before I wish he would. I also said I wish the candidates for the State Senate would also.
The option I would prefer is to have an open and ongoing dialogue with Steve and other candidates (regardless of the level in which they are running). Our city council is also missing out on that type of open dialogue.
Ignoring the online option for such a dialogue makes me wonder how in tune candidates really are.
Standing in front of a crowd and carefully timing the Q & A or closing it down if one doesn't like the questions (ala Chris Lee at his one eye to eye town hall meeting) is self serving.
In lieu of an answer as to which jurisdiction the poll refers...
Congressional Districts: I see no advantage to reassigning resident prison populations- other than to benefit districts outside our region. ...Not to ignore being poised on the verge of losing representation depending on the current census count. I support the current prisoner residency assignment.
State Legislative Districts: The Western New York region lost an Assembly District not so long ago. For the sake of maintaining our share and stake in Albany it would not be in our best interest to alter the current formula that accounts prisoners in the district where they are confined.
County Legislative Districts: Perhaps if Orleans and Genesee merged their county jail facilities as has been proposed, the result might impact districting and require consideration. However, this is an issue for those counties where significant prison populations are a factor.
John, on June 16th you asked, rhetorically, "When will CM post here on his own." Today you suggest, "I agree it would be nice to have Hawley post here, but..." You further advise Bea, "Asking Hawley, online or off, can be your job." There seems to be a degree of separation in your mind as to the two candidates' obligations to post on this website.
CM,
Wrong again. First, nobody is "obligated" to post here.
Second, you had posted here before you decided to run, then stopped. I, like a few others, was disappointed you stopped, but you got over whatever hesitation you had.
Third, Hawley, like most other already elected officials around, never did post here. Nice if they would, but they don't. Charlie Mallow was one of the few who would.
Fourth, if Bea wants a question asked, she should do it, not ask somebody else.
The general lack of news coming out of City Hall so far this term (outside of Much Ado About Plumbing, of course) may be to the credit of the council as a whole.
And, to be fair, the plumbing thing has its base in the City Manager's office, not in the council chambers.
A balanced budget has a calming effect and with the people who are on Council, I doubt there is a spending spree on the way anytime soon.
As for CM posting again, I believe it’s to his credit. He believes in the things he says and will stand behind them. Whether or not you agree with him, he’s willing to stand up for what he believes in.
He and the rest of the incumbents that I'm voting against this fall have been very busy in Albany working on getting the budget passed.
These activities have taken up a lot of Steve's time and no doubt once he's freed of that burden he'll be a regular poster here.
State Democrats are in the majority of both the Assembly and Senate. My side can't stop them, or maybe (?) they would have stopped the 4% tax increase on clothes your side passed.
Why should they be counted
Why should they be counted while incarcerated? My understanding is they have no legal rights while prisoners of the state. If they are to be counted, it is only fair they are counted where they are physically located.
I think this is kind of
I think this is kind of trivial. Just like Bud mentioned about them having no legal rights while a prisoner of the state. So if it's not the prisoners vote that the politicians are concerned with what is it?
Can anyone name a single
Can anyone name a single upstate legislator who has ever visited their constituents in the jails in their districts?
Maybe they could just count
Maybe they could just count each prisoner as three fifths of a person. That sounds like a compromise that would pass constitutional muster.
66% of New York State
66% of New York State Department of Corrections' 57,481
prisoners are from New York City while housed in upstate prisons. The federal census that determines congressional representation currently credits prison population to the place of incarceration. As New York battles for dwindling per capita political clout, these disenfranchised felons have become pawns in a power grab.
There are two sides to the coin- of course. Prison hosting locales cite the services they must provide, such as fire protection and medical. While New York City argues that relocation in the DOC system does not constitute change of official residence- especially when the cost of due process was footed by NYC.
Another facet of the impact of prison populations is illustrated in Oneida County politics. Oneida County includes 6,055 state prisoners in their legislative districting formula. 38% of the Marcy District is prison population; 33% of Westmoreland is likewise.
Since New York's prison population cannot vote (until discharged, parole obligation satisfied or executive clemency), arguing for a legitimate location for their civic voice is specious.
If prisoners are counted in congressional districting, should same apply to state and local districting formulae and visaversa?
Many years ago, I listened to
Many years ago, I listened to a minister who was a chaplan for Attica. He complained, bitterly, about the unfair conditions the downstate prisoners were exposed to while incarcerated at Attica.
"Attica is too rural for metropolitan people." It seems that fresh air, and country environment were considered an additional punishment for those folks.
There is a large burden
There is a large burden placed on local communities that have prisons. Consider the local areas of Albion and Attica. Both have two prisons that need water, sewage treatment and local road maintenance (just to name a few things). None of this is cheap and counting the inmates in the local area helps get money to pay for all of it.
Prisons are a boon to rural
Prisons are a boon to rural communities. Small towns lobby state and federal officials for prisons. In 1996, sixteen upstate communities were competing for three proposed new prisons. Robert Van Slyke, president of the Rome Area Chamber of Commerce, said, "When we heard the governor had proposed three new maximum-security prisons, we asked whether Rome could be considered." Antwerp, another small community in northern New York, applied for a $600,000 federal grant to rebuild their water-supply system to better their chances.
Every two weeks New York State Department of Corrections payroll adds $920,000 to local economies.
On the political side, witness the clamor when talk of closing prison facilities arises. Correctional facilities have spread throughout rural, Republican stretches of the state with dwindling legislative district populations (and jobs). The expansion was fueled by 1980s drug-crime boom, a Republican held Senate and a trade-off over then governor Cuomo's multiple vetoes of a death penalty bill. Not to ignore, inmates counted when maps were drawn for Senate and the Assembly districts.
When Spitzer replaced Pataki, he announced that he would close four prisons. Republicans controlled the State Senate, and Joe Bruno blocked the move- along with a prostitution scandal that vacated Spitzer. David A. Paterson sided with the Legislature to spend $34 million and keep the four prisons open. ...Although he did close three prison camps; he spared one in a Democratic represented district.
CM, Patterson didn't spare a
CM,
Patterson didn't spare a camp, he didn't have the votes from his party to close it. He still wants that unneeded camp closed.
Gov. Patterson also wants to close the medium security Ogdensburg Correctional Facility up on the St. Lawrence River. Let's see if the Democrats let him.
The Sing Sing Correctional Facility near NYC is also long past due to be closed, but guess which party says no?
Point is neither party want to close prisons because the other party will nail them for losing jobs and being soft on crime. Both sides do it.
There was one exception. When he first ran for governor, Mario Cuomo promised that if elected and if the Long Island area went for him, he would actually close the recently opened Pilgram Correctional Facility, whcih was not wanted by the locals. He won and he kept his word, closing it.
Thanks for making my point
Thanks for making my point for me, John. You're a peach.
CM, I knew you needed the
CM,
I knew you needed the help.
C.M., “disenfranchised
C.M., “disenfranchised felons” Holy cats! Are you serious? That sounds like some thing Al Sharpton would say.
BTW C.M. I have to
BTW C.M. I have to congratulate you on being a true Politician. You said a lot here about the subject, but never gave your position.
Howard, maybe you can invite Steve to offer his position.
Disenfranchised felons is
Disenfranchised felons is merely a statement of fact. They have no right to vote. The determination of their official residency is of value because it equates to distribution of revenue and political clout. I was answering Jeremiah Pedro's question- not expressing my opinion. I expressed my opinion when I voted in the poll.
CM, Where do you, as a
CM,
Where do you, as a candidate for the Assembly, think inmates should be counted?
John, Are you asking Hawley
John,
Are you asking Hawley the same questions?
If so, and since he refuses to participate in an online discussion, will you please post his responses here?
Bea, Asking Hawley, online or
Bea,
Asking Hawley, online or off, can be your job.
I think inmates they should be counted where they confined at the time of the census. Bea, what do you think?
Totally agree, John.
Totally agree, John.
John, Since you are one of
John,
Since you are one of Hawley's staunch supporters, one would think that you would want to post his position here.
It is my job to ask him questions when, and if, I am anywhere he is making a public appearance. Then, there is the possibility of not getting that opportunity, even if I attended
Bea, You can also pick up a
Bea,
You can also pick up a phone (a bit old fashioned), call Hawley's office and ask questions and ask for a response.
...and who will give that
...and who will give that response? A staffer.
On here, Hawley - like CM - would be communicating directly with those with questions.
Not getting into a spitting match on this one. It would just be nice to see Steve put some time into chatting with us here on the site.
Bea, I agree it would be nice
Bea,
I agree it would be nice to have Hawley post here, but if you get an answer even from a staffer, then you could post it here, right? So Bea,, why not try?
It would also be great if the State Senate candidates posted here
In my initial post on this
In my initial post on this subject I asked a question that has gone unanswered. Congressional, State Legislative or County Legislative districts could be considered. Would the author of the poll qualify the jurisdiction the poll addresses?
Bea, I'd be leery. John has
Bea, I'd be leery. John has excused Steve Hawley from posting here, assured you that Hawley-staffers are qualified to answer your question and pointed out that you can contact Steve on your very own telephone. Oddly, as much as John has clued you to all of this, he wants you to do the legwork. I think you're being taken advantage of.
CM, Since Bea is on the City
CM,
Since Bea is on the City Democratic committee, I would think she would want to do everything she can to get her questions answered, don't you?
And where did I excuse Hawley from not posting here, or did you just make that up I said it would be nice if he did, and I have said before I wish he would. I also said I wish the candidates for the State Senate would also.
John, relaz. Your candidate
John, relaz. Your candidate choses not to be part of this online community. That is his loss.
CM
I know where John wants to take me on this one.
C.M., in what way is the
C.M., in what way is the question qualified?
Bea, It is his, and the
Bea,
It is his, and the Senate candidates, loss. But the point is that if you really want to ask Hawley a question, you do have other options.
The option I would prefer is
The option I would prefer is to have an open and ongoing dialogue with Steve and other candidates (regardless of the level in which they are running). Our city council is also missing out on that type of open dialogue.
Ignoring the online option for such a dialogue makes me wonder how in tune candidates really are.
Standing in front of a crowd and carefully timing the Q & A or closing it down if one doesn't like the questions (ala Chris Lee at his one eye to eye town hall meeting) is self serving.
In lieu of an answer as to
In lieu of an answer as to which jurisdiction the poll refers...
Congressional Districts: I see no advantage to reassigning resident prison populations- other than to benefit districts outside our region. ...Not to ignore being poised on the verge of losing representation depending on the current census count. I support the current prisoner residency assignment.
State Legislative Districts: The Western New York region lost an Assembly District not so long ago. For the sake of maintaining our share and stake in Albany it would not be in our best interest to alter the current formula that accounts prisoners in the district where they are confined.
County Legislative Districts: Perhaps if Orleans and Genesee merged their county jail facilities as has been proposed, the result might impact districting and require consideration. However, this is an issue for those counties where significant prison populations are a factor.
John, on June 16th you asked,
John, on June 16th you asked, rhetorically, "When will CM post here on his own." Today you suggest, "I agree it would be nice to have Hawley post here, but..." You further advise Bea, "Asking Hawley, online or off, can be your job." There seems to be a degree of separation in your mind as to the two candidates' obligations to post on this website.
CM, Wrong again. First,
CM,
Wrong again. First, nobody is "obligated" to post here.
Second, you had posted here before you decided to run, then stopped. I, like a few others, was disappointed you stopped, but you got over whatever hesitation you had.
Third, Hawley, like most other already elected officials around, never did post here. Nice if they would, but they don't. Charlie Mallow was one of the few who would.
Fourth, if Bea wants a question asked, she should do it, not ask somebody else.
Nobody holds the candidate
Nobody holds the candidate they like to the same standard as the one they don't, it's human nature.
Chris, Off the subject a bit,
Chris,
Off the subject a bit, is your party running a candidate this year in the Batavia's 2nd ward?
I have no official comment on
I have no official comment on that John.
Chris, Just wondering.
Chris,
Just wondering.
What do you think of the job
What do you think of the job Ms. Pacino has done so far?
Chris, In the 7 months she
Chris,
In the 7 months she has been on Council, I think she has done a good job.
What do you think?
I'd say not a whole lot has
I'd say not a whole lot has happened in those months so it's tough to form an opinion.
Chris, That sounds fair.
Chris,
That sounds fair.
The general lack of news
The general lack of news coming out of City Hall so far this term (outside of Much Ado About Plumbing, of course) may be to the credit of the council as a whole.
And, to be fair, the plumbing thing has its base in the City Manager's office, not in the council chambers.
A balanced budget has a
A balanced budget has a calming effect and with the people who are on Council, I doubt there is a spending spree on the way anytime soon.
As for CM posting again, I believe it’s to his credit. He believes in the things he says and will stand behind them. Whether or not you agree with him, he’s willing to stand up for what he believes in.
I agree with Charlie
I agree with Charlie regarding C.M. Barons. It'd be a lot easier if you had a "like" button, Howard. haha
Aw come on you guys!! Give
Aw come on you guys!! Give Steve a break!
He and the rest of the incumbents that I'm voting against this fall have been very busy in Albany working on getting the budget passed.
These activities have taken up a lot of Steve's time and no doubt once he's freed of that burden he'll be a regular poster here.
To David Meyer: "like" yep,
To David Meyer:
"like"
yep, it would be easier to have a like button
David, Well, the Gov. called
David,
Well, the Gov. called them all back to Albany today. Lets see if after, what, 15 weeks, the Democrats will pass a budget today.
John, Of course you are
John,
Of course you are hoping that the party of 'no' will do everything in their power to stop the budget from passing.
Bea, You must have made that
Bea,
You must have made that up.
State Democrats are in the majority of both the Assembly and Senate. My side can't stop them, or maybe (?) they would have stopped the 4% tax increase on clothes your side passed.