we all ready have rules on the books.
illegal immigrants just are jumping in front of the line and its not fare to the legal ones.
illegal is just what it is illegal , send back to where they come from.
I agree with William ,illegal means you are breaking a law..Maybe we should be calling them criminal immigrants?And like JoAnne said its not just Mexicans..I don't see how you can let them become citizens at all..
If you are here illegally that means you are probably not paying taxes,not driving with a valid license..So its not just one crime they are committing, its many..If i want to travel out side of the USA i need to buy a passport.You can not even enter Canada if you have a DWI conviction...
Oh come on people, the only way I can see anyone allowing the illegals in this country is to drive down labor costs, and if costs are low, those savings will be passed on to the consumer,not.It reminds me of all the manufacturing jobs shipped overseas, lower costs, less regulation, cheaper costs to the manufacturer, the problem is, I haven't seen those savings passed on to the consumers.More blah blah from big business. And we all know big business runs this country.
George, what you did was link, I think you meant "embed" anyway, good vid, I've always liked Arlo and EmmyLou both, and Woody Guthrie too. I don't agree with Arlo though when he said that his father would tell a story without being political, hell Woody Guthrie was VERY political. That's OK, though I always enjoy his music and stories.
I'm trying to get my mind around a different way of looking at this issue. I'm not there yet, but I'd like to share something with anyone who's interested. http://www.fff.org/comment/com1005c.asp
Don't know who said it but I like the quote " Reform just means they didn't get it right the last time" which applies to immigration policy.
I disagree Charlie anyone who enters this country illegally is a criminal. Maybe if we consider them Domestic Terrorists and jail them it might slow the constant influx of ILLEGAL immigrants. Maybe offer a reward for catching them might help. We still cant secure our borders and we spend quite a bit of money sending them back anyways just to have them return again and again.
Howard, that's not going to help. Most immigrants that return here seasonally have no problems following the law but there are a few of these seasonal immigrants that take advantage of this and harbor ILLEGALS. It actually has happened in Genesee County. All because the process was made easier. The people that employed them had a very loose policy of reporting anything and were following the legal guidelines or at least the government could not catch them.
<edit>
I have personally known migrant/seasonal workers for the past few years in this area. Most of them want to go back home. A few actually get to stay. Next season they help other migrant workers and unfortunately it is to easy for them or their employer to harbor ILLEGALS in some way or another. Maybe we should consider that all illegal immigrants are like that guest in our home that wont ever leave no matter how many hints you give them.
Gabor "The people that employed them had a very loose policy of reporting anything and were following the legal guidelines or at least the government could not catch them."
Gabor, it’s hard for me to call someone a terrorist who is coming to work our fields for next to nothing. There is obviously work for migrants and someone is making it real easy for them to find it. It seems like we have a real problem holding our own citizens accountable. They are the ones hiring and attracting these new immigrants. I’m with Howard on this; if we have a migrant problem, let more of them in legally.
From what I have seen, there are no harder working people.
I don't agree that there is one solution to this problem nor can I blame only one entity. I first and foremost blame the ILLEGAL, Then my Government, Then Business, ect.
Howard do you think that all the illegal Mexicans are migrant workers..They are coming here and getting illegal documents and doing construction and factory work,also are doing household maid and landscaping work..These people are here to stay..They are not just here to pick crops..Frank had it right all it does is drive down our wages..With 10% unemployment there is no need for migrant workers..Charlie you are right the people employing the illegals are guilty also and should be punished..When was the last farmer you hear of being fined for hiring illegals.The government doesn't want to do their job and enforce the law..It's good to see some of these states taking an active role and trying to do something about this..The feds sure aren't..
When a person breaks into your house and steals your jewelery, he knows he's taking from a person for his own benefit.
When a person enters the country illegally for work, who's the victim?
You can argue the taxpayer, but the taxpayer also benefits by the economic contribution the migrant worker makes, so to me, it's a wash.
The "illegal" is coming here not to rob us, not to cheat us, but to take a shot and improving the economic well being of his family.
The last person I blame is the "illegal."
Nor do I blame the business, because the business is just trying to turn a profit in an environment in which its hard to get affordable, reliable labor.
Who is at fault for an environment where you have people ready, willing and able to work, and employers ready to hire them - blame the government. The government has created this insane system that hinders the free market.
LOL. If you make it easier you are going to have the same problems if not more ? It is not that hard for a LEGAL migrant worker to work here now. It has nothing to do with hard working nice people either. It's about the law. I have to follow it why doesn't everyone else ? Making it easier also creates more government spending because you have to have officials checking up on businesses and yes, the worker. There are monthly visits sometimes here. I would rather see immediate amnesty, with secured borders and new immigration policy or even a temporary halt.
This, to me comes back to the book Howard turned me on to "The Collapse of Complex Societies" I still haven't gotten to it, I've only read excerpts and papers on it. I keep running into people who are reading it or like me have read excerpts and want to. The Governments (Local, States and Federal) see a problem and try to fix it with more laws. It's crazy if you put aside your emotions and think about it. They feel the need to keep manipulating immigration, because all the policies up to now didn't work. The simple law of supply and demand will balance out a lot of our problems if we would just allow true free markets to work.
William, what is liberal about a less government, free-market solution?
Government interference in the free movement of labor across borders is anti-free market. I can't see how any conservative can justify such an intrusion into the market.
That's right, Dave, and that's why I favor a simpler, less-government, basic solution: Make it easy as pie for labor to enter the country.
And Mark, they're not taking jobs U.S. citizens would do. Where citizens want to work, they do. I just don't buy the crap that they're taking jobs from citizens.
I've stayed in a lot of hotels all around America and I've seen far more Anglo and African-American maids and bus boys than Hispanic.
In the commentary that I linked to above, Hornberger talks about the old Soviet Union manipulating labor in anticipation of market needs sort of like the Fed does in deciding who to give work visas to. It's incredibly difficult to anticipate labor needs unless you're also manipulating the market too. And if a guy could accurately predict markets, he'd be an investor making boatloads of money, not working for the Government.
We sure do have alot of welfare receivers in this country right? Well, if you want benefits you get your lazy, worthless welfare receiving buttocks out into the fields, and you earn the money I get stolen from me in every paycheck that goes to you. Abra kadabra no more need for ILLEGALS. If we had no need for the "working" illegals to come over here then that would just leave the "up to no good" illegals that would be crossing the borders and then maybe, just maybe this stupid liberal administration would do something about our borders (and yes i realize the irony of mentioning our borders when just today it was announced that 1200 national guardsman were heading to the border, which is a great start but not enough eyes and ears and guns in my opinion) :)
There will always be bad people who want to steal and do bad things, there will always be malingerers who will lie and fake their way out of work and onto the public dole. Shutting off immigration will not solve those problems, I don't know what will, but not that. You can't shut down public assistance because a lot of people truly need it and that's who we are as a country. I don't want more law enforcement. The only thing that I can make sense of is to open up the free markets, let people honestly create markets that will create job opportunities and hope that it shows the folks that are the problem a better way of living and that they will take to it. I'm sure I'll be called a utopian dreamer for that, but AGAIN.. the way things are going now is not sustainable.
Come on everyone The Mexicans come here to make a living illegal or not.They work in those hot fields in 90 degree weather everyday. And I bet you don't see one American in that field pulling weeds or picking up rocks They are the ones who are putting some of the food on our table if we did not have these guys the prices of the food would go down and we would be paying more then we are now .Some of them work on farms as well milking cows and cows are milking more then before because of these guys and the number are getting better some of them are not trouble makers they just want to do what they have to do and make money and put a roof over there family head back home in Mexico . There are so many family that are Mexicans that have little ones born in The united states.I think the ones who have little ones here should be able to stay and get the right paper work or documentation to stay here
Is it not "free markets" that has sent so MANY american manufacturing jobs over to china? Coupled with greed of course on the side of the american companys.
Tim; I believe your second sentence is much more accurate than the first. Manufacturing jobs were mostly replaced by technology or automation. The ones that weren't were because the company didn't want to re-invest in automation or make the workplace more palatable for workers. One hundred years ago, a lot more Americans worked in agriculture, where did those jobs go? Technology, machines do the work of whole gangs of men. Same with manufacturing. If you really want government intervention in your life, let's improve education from kindergarten to grad school and make it cheap or even free. Then we can export technology and medicine and processes for improving agriculture and city planning and transportation and construction; all things developing countries need to produce food and manufactured goods they can sell to us. Instead of controlling how many engineers and medical students can come here from other countries. We could and should be kicking their butts. Instead the US is worrying about maintaining an empire and controlling border access.
JoAnn: A. the 9-11 hijackers all entered this country legally. But, to answer your question anyway, how about the USA stops trying to manipulate other countries. That may have worked, leave them alone, they'll leave us alone. Would you like the reading list Ron Paul gave to Rudy Guiliani?
B. Quote: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” inscribed an a plaque inside the Statue Of Liberty, attributed to Benjamin Franklin
JoAnne, all of the 9/11 hijackers were in the country legally.
Tim, Dave: Free trade isn't really free markets because there are structural defects in many of the overseas labor markets that allow them to artificially keep the cost of labor down, such as despotic governments and corrupt bureaucracies. It goes beyond the environmental controls and labor standard in this country vs. foreign competitors, a bigger issue is the concerted effort in those countries to keep cheap labor cheap and siphon off the profits for the ruling classes.
And it's not just automation, there are plenty of factory jobs overseas for people, not robots.
The only way the U.S. can equitably enter into a free trade agreement with another country is if the other country is a stable democracy governed by the rule of law. Otherwise, the American worker is at a competitive disadvantage with no chance to profit or prosper from free trade.
There is no doubt many, many good jobs have been lost to free trade as we know it today.
I totally get what your saying, and believe me Gov't sticking thier nose into ANYTHING except for defense is something i am against with a purple passion, so i think its safe to assume you and I are on the same page there.
The ONLY thing the gov't is supposed to be doing for us is protecting us and securing our borders. The fact that we have millions apon millions of ILLEGALS in this country is discusting and shows where the gov't priorities lie.
The part about technology and taking the next step makes sense but only to a certain degree. Are you actually saying that all or even most of the manufacturing jobs that have gone to china are now being preformed by highly skilled laborers using the cutting edge of technology to put together all the flimsy garbage that can be found in every wally world, dollar tree, ect ect?
Not only are people working is sweat shops in china, but i believe they are sweat shops on steroids :) When was the last time you bought anything made over there that lasted a reasonable amount of time?
And also Dave, not to sound like a tyrant here, and this will probally we taken the wrong way, but in reference to your last sentence...Whats wrong with maintaining an "empire" and our border access?
Tim, Howard; I didn't clarify very well, technology replaced many manufacturing jobs here. Other countries replaced the jobs that Americans didn't want to do for low pay. Same as agriculture, sort of, except that the workers are coming here for some of the agriculture jobs. Of course there are exceptions. I'm trying to point out that the future of this country and Batavia is a great example, is not manufacturing. Let's buy from China and whoever the stuff they make and sell them what we can do best.
Tim; your last paragraph: Empires always fail. We can't afford it. We have an open border with Canada without much problem. Stop worrying about the Mexicans coming in and focus on how we can continue making Americans prosperous. Again, it's not going to be manufacturing or cutting cabbage.
Empires always fall? Sheesh mr. glass half empty :)
"Let's buy from China and whoever the stuff they make and sell them what we can do best."
Lets not :)
"Other countries replaced the jobs that americans didnt want to do for low pay"
The LOW PAY part is the ONLY accurate part of that sentence. I happen to know there are many people who would gladly do a manufacturing job for a living...Gladly. Its those kinds of jobs that made this country, and it is something WE DO WELL. (There is nothing more iritating that going into a wally world, buying a cheap, chinese product that breaks or wears out 6 months later that I remember buying a decade earlier and remembering how many YEARS it lasted) I would agree that those kinds of jobs are few and far in between and are moving overseas at an alarming rate, and you could be very right that it is not this country's future, but i believe its something worth fighting for to get back.
Dave, I would be concerned that moving toward a "what we do best" economy as you map it out -- essentially saying "what we do best" is intellectual work.
I don't believe the Chinese are any less smart than we are, and there's more of them, so relying solely on intellectual capital is not a defensable competitive advantage.
We need a diversified economy that includes manufacturing.
Further, not every child born in this country is suited to become an engineer, and that isn't a comment at all on intellectual capability. You can have a very high IQ and still be best suited to working with your hands. If we don't have good paying manufacturing jobs we are simply consigning a whole class of people to having no future by low-paying service-sector jobs.
There is simply no reason -- other than unfair free-trade agreements -- that the U.S. can't continue to be a top product producing country. And I see no advantage to the United States, empire or not, in being weak in manufacturing. And I see no contradiction in being strong in manufacturing and strong in engineering, or other intellectually demanding pursuits.
I don't remember people that upset with illegals until the 1980's, when the courts started saying they had rights to education, social services and medical care. The cost for that came out of legal residents pockets in the form of higher taxes. Then it got worse with the idea of the drivers license for them. Those ideas and policies turned many citizens against them.
I look at this problem as three problems: 1) controlling the influx of illegal entries, 2) managing and keeping tabs on holders of visas and guest workers, 3) managing those who have illegally extended their presence in the U. S.
History has taught us that guards and walls do not deter those desperate enough to challenge them. The surest method for drying up the surge of emigres is to neutralize the disparity that exists between the two sides of the border. Foreign interests in Mexico- not just U. S. corporations- need to culture a supportive rather than exploitative relationship with Mexican (not to overlook Central and South American) labor and resources. Past economic and political arrogance has fashioned the dynamics on either side of the border, and it is overdue for repair. This is an international issue and must be dealt with as such.
Any temporary guest in this country should be monitored throughout the course of their stay. This is SOP in other nations, and should be likewise in the United States- especially since the advent of Homeland Security. If we choose to ignore our visitors, there is no one else to blame when they overstay their welcome. Also 79% of undocumented workers indicate that they would prefer temporary status, extended work privileges that presume eventual return to their native country.
Once an undocumented emigre has established him/herself in this country through employment and having children born in the United States, how can he/she be deported? Intuitively, if there is no legal ground aside from citizenship status; why boot them? Certainly the parents cannot be handled aside from their children, who are no less citizens because of their parents' status.
I see no reason NOT to expel an undocumented alien who is behaving criminally. Spying, assault, robbery, murder, rape, drug trafficking; these are cause for deportation. An undocumented- but otherwise law-abiding farmworker/maid/busboy/servant with a spouse and American-born kids does not warrant the same treatment.
We would be farther ahead to establish a work program that accounts for foreign laborers, allows some privileges such as driver's license and access to basic education and medical service, while monitoring such guest workers in anticipation of their voluntary leave. This would be more practical than forcing them into a paranoid subclass that promotes exploitation and criminal behavior. It also presents an opportunity to fashion a legal status to disambiguate the gray areas of citizenship concerning offspring of non-citizens.
Man, spout off and defend yourself from all angles. First off, I thank you all for making me really think more than I normally do LOL.
1st: Howard "Further, not every child born in this country is suited to become an engineer, and that isn't a comment at all on intellectual capability. You can have a very high IQ and still be best suited to working with your hands. If we don't have good paying manufacturing jobs we are simply consigning a whole class of people to having no future by low-paying service sector jobs." sorry for repeating your whole paragraph, I believe that an enterprising American with an average or better IQ will find something to do that is meaningful to them, that may be flipping burgers or washing cars, I support honest labor whether manual or intellectual. All manufacturing isn't going to go overseas either, we'll still always build things, just not like we used to.
2. John and CM; I think you are both on the same page and if so, me too. All guest workers need to be "on the books" paying taxes and contributing, no more off the books/under the table stuff. That's the only way we can offer health care, legal aid etc; but if they don't want to be citizens, fine. If they don't want to speak English, fine. We shouldn't cater to them and pay for interpreters etc. And yes, send the criminals back.
3. Tim; you and I can probably agree that if there was a big enough market for any item, and they could get the price necessary to make it,somebody would start making it. The cheap, crappy products you describe are here because people buy them.
4. JoAnne: the 9/11 hijackers ENTERED legally, some stayed after their visas expired, that is the fault of the immigration people. If they entered with altered passports, that is the fault of whoever examined them. Like I wrote earlier, there'll always be bad guys, different issue. CM wrote "History has taught us that guards and walls do not deter those desperate enough to challenge them." Absolutely correct CM
I just don't know what to say I know a lot of people who have Mexican kids that were born here and there mother is American and the father is Mexican or the other way around or both parents are Mexican Then what do you do in this case. If they know the language and they can speak it and they understand the law as well I think I would give them a chance We all don't live forever.
C.M. says "An undocumented- but otherwise law-abiding farmworker/maid/busboy/servant with a spouse and American-born kids does not warrant the same treatment."
message to illegals...as soon as you cross the border go to the nearest farm, hotel, resturant, etc. find a girl, impregnate her and enjoy your welcome to America. I stated some alternative but absurd comparisons earlier, the point being that the original question was "Should there be a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants?" the only path after being caught doing something illegal should be some sort of punishment, whether it be fines, deportation, or imprisonment. When did our course of action towards illegal activity change?
If illegal workers are rewarded with citizenship and become eligible for employment "on the books" as Dave suggests, I don't think they will settle for menial farm work for very long.
They will move on to better jobs and the next wave of illegals will move in to take on the jobs that they no longer want...and so on and so on.
I agree with Jeff that there needs to be some sort of punishment for both worker and employer.
Jeff, I agree that illegal activity should not be rewarded. I contrast the millions of anonymous, productive illegals who enjoy de facto citizenship with the few criminals that are sensationalized.
Illegal immigration actually mirrors legal immigration, lagging in numbers, but paralleling national origin. Compared to the 1990s, illegal immigration has slowed due to border enforcement and reduction of job opportunities relative to the recession. However, as long as the United States sanctions legal immigration, there will be those who follow family members, the trail of financial success or the siphon effect that began in the 1965 with the rescinding of the quota system and was maximized by IRCA mass amnesty in 1986.
The complexities defy easy answers and heighten the level of frustration as our economy languishes and unemployment rises- a double whammy that never fails to produce an outsider to blame.
A rational solution will emerge when cooler heads prevail.
One must keep in mind that Mexicans have been alternately treated hot and cold by the United States. During the late 1800s when anti-Chinese sentiments rose, California welcomed Hispanics to work orchards. Southwestern states' efforts to repatriate Mexicans reversed the trend. Labor shortages during World War I again saw a need for Mexican labor. The Great Depression reversed that. World War II invited Mexican laborers back- only to be squelched by Operation Wetback in the 1950s. Currently states like Colorado that depend on seasonal/migrant farm laborers are drastically undermanned. Despite raising wages from $7.50 to $10 per hour, laws to discourage illegals have scared away half the workforce.
One might question our own ability to make up our minds.
we all ready have rules on
we all ready have rules on the books.
illegal immigrants just are jumping in front of the line and its not fare to the legal ones.
illegal is just what it is illegal , send back to where they come from.
The phrase, "illegal
The phrase, "illegal immigrants" has mistakenly become synonymous with hard working, Mexicans seeking a better way of life in America.
I think it is important to remember that the illegal immigrant population includes those from all countries of origin - not just Mexico.
Why make it easier for Russian spies or terrorists to infiltrate America and succeed in their evil goals by clearing away the citizenship obstacle?
I agree with William ,illegal
I agree with William ,illegal means you are breaking a law..Maybe we should be calling them criminal immigrants?And like JoAnne said its not just Mexicans..I don't see how you can let them become citizens at all..
If you are here illegally that means you are probably not paying taxes,not driving with a valid license..So its not just one crime they are committing, its many..If i want to travel out side of the USA i need to buy a passport.You can not even enter Canada if you have a DWI conviction...
I don't know how to link, but
I don't know how to link, but here's what I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN3HTdndZec
Oh come on people, the only
Oh come on people, the only way I can see anyone allowing the illegals in this country is to drive down labor costs, and if costs are low, those savings will be passed on to the consumer,not.It reminds me of all the manufacturing jobs shipped overseas, lower costs, less regulation, cheaper costs to the manufacturer, the problem is, I haven't seen those savings passed on to the consumers.More blah blah from big business. And we all know big business runs this country.
George, what you did was
George, what you did was link, I think you meant "embed" anyway, good vid, I've always liked Arlo and EmmyLou both, and Woody Guthrie too. I don't agree with Arlo though when he said that his father would tell a story without being political, hell Woody Guthrie was VERY political. That's OK, though I always enjoy his music and stories.
I'm trying to get my mind
I'm trying to get my mind around a different way of looking at this issue. I'm not there yet, but I'd like to share something with anyone who's interested. http://www.fff.org/comment/com1005c.asp
Don't know who said it but I like the quote " Reform just means they didn't get it right the last time" which applies to immigration policy.
The only criminals are the
The only criminals are the business owners who hire these people without proper documentation.
I disagree Charlie anyone who
I disagree Charlie anyone who enters this country illegally is a criminal. Maybe if we consider them Domestic Terrorists and jail them it might slow the constant influx of ILLEGAL immigrants. Maybe offer a reward for catching them might help. We still cant secure our borders and we spend quite a bit of money sending them back anyways just to have them return again and again.
You want fewer "illegal
You want fewer "illegal immigrants"? You want to make it harder for bad guys (terrorists and hardened criminals) to cross the border?
Here's an easy and damn obvious and simple solution: Make it easier for migrant workers to enter the country legally.
Problem solved.
Howard, that's not going to
Howard, that's not going to help. Most immigrants that return here seasonally have no problems following the law but there are a few of these seasonal immigrants that take advantage of this and harbor ILLEGALS. It actually has happened in Genesee County. All because the process was made easier. The people that employed them had a very loose policy of reporting anything and were following the legal guidelines or at least the government could not catch them.
<edit>
I have personally known migrant/seasonal workers for the past few years in this area. Most of them want to go back home. A few actually get to stay. Next season they help other migrant workers and unfortunately it is to easy for them or their employer to harbor ILLEGALS in some way or another. Maybe we should consider that all illegal immigrants are like that guest in our home that wont ever leave no matter how many hints you give them.
Gabor "The people that
Gabor "The people that employed them had a very loose policy of reporting anything and were following the legal guidelines or at least the government could not catch them."
See Charlie's post above
Gabor, it’s hard for me to
Gabor, it’s hard for me to call someone a terrorist who is coming to work our fields for next to nothing. There is obviously work for migrants and someone is making it real easy for them to find it. It seems like we have a real problem holding our own citizens accountable. They are the ones hiring and attracting these new immigrants. I’m with Howard on this; if we have a migrant problem, let more of them in legally.
From what I have seen, there are no harder working people.
I don't agree that there is
I don't agree that there is one solution to this problem nor can I blame only one entity. I first and foremost blame the ILLEGAL, Then my Government, Then Business, ect.
Howard do you think that all
Howard do you think that all the illegal Mexicans are migrant workers..They are coming here and getting illegal documents and doing construction and factory work,also are doing household maid and landscaping work..These people are here to stay..They are not just here to pick crops..Frank had it right all it does is drive down our wages..With 10% unemployment there is no need for migrant workers..Charlie you are right the people employing the illegals are guilty also and should be punished..When was the last farmer you hear of being fined for hiring illegals.The government doesn't want to do their job and enforce the law..It's good to see some of these states taking an active role and trying to do something about this..The feds sure aren't..
When a person breaks into
When a person breaks into your house and steals your jewelery, he knows he's taking from a person for his own benefit.
When a person enters the country illegally for work, who's the victim?
You can argue the taxpayer, but the taxpayer also benefits by the economic contribution the migrant worker makes, so to me, it's a wash.
The "illegal" is coming here not to rob us, not to cheat us, but to take a shot and improving the economic well being of his family.
The last person I blame is the "illegal."
Nor do I blame the business, because the business is just trying to turn a profit in an environment in which its hard to get affordable, reliable labor.
Who is at fault for an environment where you have people ready, willing and able to work, and employers ready to hire them - blame the government. The government has created this insane system that hinders the free market.
LOL. If you make it easier
LOL. If you make it easier you are going to have the same problems if not more ? It is not that hard for a LEGAL migrant worker to work here now. It has nothing to do with hard working nice people either. It's about the law. I have to follow it why doesn't everyone else ? Making it easier also creates more government spending because you have to have officials checking up on businesses and yes, the worker. There are monthly visits sometimes here. I would rather see immediate amnesty, with secured borders and new immigration policy or even a temporary halt.
Howard, your such a liberal
Howard, your such a liberal lol
This, to me comes back to the
This, to me comes back to the book Howard turned me on to "The Collapse of Complex Societies" I still haven't gotten to it, I've only read excerpts and papers on it. I keep running into people who are reading it or like me have read excerpts and want to. The Governments (Local, States and Federal) see a problem and try to fix it with more laws. It's crazy if you put aside your emotions and think about it. They feel the need to keep manipulating immigration, because all the policies up to now didn't work. The simple law of supply and demand will balance out a lot of our problems if we would just allow true free markets to work.
William, what is liberal
William, what is liberal about a less government, free-market solution?
Government interference in the free movement of labor across borders is anti-free market. I can't see how any conservative can justify such an intrusion into the market.
That's right, Dave, and
That's right, Dave, and that's why I favor a simpler, less-government, basic solution: Make it easy as pie for labor to enter the country.
And Mark, they're not taking jobs U.S. citizens would do. Where citizens want to work, they do. I just don't buy the crap that they're taking jobs from citizens.
I've stayed in a lot of hotels all around America and I've seen far more Anglo and African-American maids and bus boys than Hispanic.
In the commentary that I
In the commentary that I linked to above, Hornberger talks about the old Soviet Union manipulating labor in anticipation of market needs sort of like the Fed does in deciding who to give work visas to. It's incredibly difficult to anticipate labor needs unless you're also manipulating the market too. And if a guy could accurately predict markets, he'd be an investor making boatloads of money, not working for the Government.
Howard said: "You want fewer
Howard said:
"You want fewer "illegal immigrants"? You want to make it harder for bad guys (terrorists and hardened criminals) to cross the border?
Here's an easy and damn obvious and simple solution: Make it easier for migrant workers to enter the country legally."
Your simple solution would actually make it easier for the bad guys to cross the border. What better cover than to pose as a migrant worker?
You also asked, who's the victim when a person enters the country illegally for work.
If they are entering illegally, who is to know for sure what they are coming here for?
Why does everyone keep assuming that the only illegal immigrants that come here are just looking for work to support their families.
We sure do have alot of
We sure do have alot of welfare receivers in this country right? Well, if you want benefits you get your lazy, worthless welfare receiving buttocks out into the fields, and you earn the money I get stolen from me in every paycheck that goes to you. Abra kadabra no more need for ILLEGALS. If we had no need for the "working" illegals to come over here then that would just leave the "up to no good" illegals that would be crossing the borders and then maybe, just maybe this stupid liberal administration would do something about our borders (and yes i realize the irony of mentioning our borders when just today it was announced that 1200 national guardsman were heading to the border, which is a great start but not enough eyes and ears and guns in my opinion) :)
There will always be bad
There will always be bad people who want to steal and do bad things, there will always be malingerers who will lie and fake their way out of work and onto the public dole. Shutting off immigration will not solve those problems, I don't know what will, but not that. You can't shut down public assistance because a lot of people truly need it and that's who we are as a country. I don't want more law enforcement. The only thing that I can make sense of is to open up the free markets, let people honestly create markets that will create job opportunities and hope that it shows the folks that are the problem a better way of living and that they will take to it. I'm sure I'll be called a utopian dreamer for that, but AGAIN.. the way things are going now is not sustainable.
Come on everyone The Mexicans
Come on everyone The Mexicans come here to make a living illegal or not.They work in those hot fields in 90 degree weather everyday. And I bet you don't see one American in that field pulling weeds or picking up rocks They are the ones who are putting some of the food on our table if we did not have these guys the prices of the food would go down and we would be paying more then we are now .Some of them work on farms as well milking cows and cows are milking more then before because of these guys and the number are getting better some of them are not trouble makers they just want to do what they have to do and make money and put a roof over there family head back home in Mexico . There are so many family that are Mexicans that have little ones born in The united states.I think the ones who have little ones here should be able to stay and get the right paper work or documentation to stay here
Take Our Jobs Last I heard,
<a href="http://www.takeourjobs.org/">Take Our Jobs</a>
Last I heard, three citizens applied for jobs through this site and are now working in the fields. Three.
Dave, better watch it -- keep
Dave, better watch it -- keep espousing those free market solutions and you'll get branded a liberal.
LOL, I've been dubbed much
LOL, I've been dubbed much worse, believe me.
Jill, what about the
Jill, what about the non-Mexicans that come here illegally?
Is it not "free markets" that
Is it not "free markets" that has sent so MANY american manufacturing jobs over to china? Coupled with greed of course on the side of the american companys.
Jill, Too bad the Mexican
Jill,
Too bad the Mexican government does not have the same view you have. Mexico does not tolerate illegals and deals with them harshly.
Tim; I believe your second
Tim; I believe your second sentence is much more accurate than the first. Manufacturing jobs were mostly replaced by technology or automation. The ones that weren't were because the company didn't want to re-invest in automation or make the workplace more palatable for workers. One hundred years ago, a lot more Americans worked in agriculture, where did those jobs go? Technology, machines do the work of whole gangs of men. Same with manufacturing. If you really want government intervention in your life, let's improve education from kindergarten to grad school and make it cheap or even free. Then we can export technology and medicine and processes for improving agriculture and city planning and transportation and construction; all things developing countries need to produce food and manufactured goods they can sell to us. Instead of controlling how many engineers and medical students can come here from other countries. We could and should be kicking their butts. Instead the US is worrying about maintaining an empire and controlling border access.
The reason conservatives can
The reason conservatives can justify such an intrusion into the market is because "labor" is not the only thing moving freely across our borders.
Which free-market solution would have prevented the 9/11 hijackers from gaining illegal entry so they could do their "jobs"?
What's next? Terrorists and drug dealers suing on the basis of job descrimination.
Should there be a path to
Should there be a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants?
-Should there be a path to licensure for illegal drivers?
-Should there be a path to homeownership for illegal squatters?
-Should there be a path to business licenses for illegal contractors?
-Should there be a path to FDA approval for illegal drug manufacturers?
-Should there be a path to permit possession for illegal gun owners?
JoAnn: A. the 9-11 hijackers
JoAnn: A. the 9-11 hijackers all entered this country legally. But, to answer your question anyway, how about the USA stops trying to manipulate other countries. That may have worked, leave them alone, they'll leave us alone. Would you like the reading list Ron Paul gave to Rudy Guiliani?
B. Quote: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” inscribed an a plaque inside the Statue Of Liberty, attributed to Benjamin Franklin
I know you didn't ask for it,
I know you didn't ask for it, but here it is anyway:
http://www.amazon.com/Educating-Rudy-Paul-reading-list/lm/RJML1CA9L0NCZ
JoAnne, all of the 9/11
JoAnne, all of the 9/11 hijackers were in the country legally.
Tim, Dave: Free trade isn't really free markets because there are structural defects in many of the overseas labor markets that allow them to artificially keep the cost of labor down, such as despotic governments and corrupt bureaucracies. It goes beyond the environmental controls and labor standard in this country vs. foreign competitors, a bigger issue is the concerted effort in those countries to keep cheap labor cheap and siphon off the profits for the ruling classes.
And it's not just automation, there are plenty of factory jobs overseas for people, not robots.
The only way the U.S. can equitably enter into a free trade agreement with another country is if the other country is a stable democracy governed by the rule of law. Otherwise, the American worker is at a competitive disadvantage with no chance to profit or prosper from free trade.
There is no doubt many, many good jobs have been lost to free trade as we know it today.
Dave, I totally get what
Dave,
I totally get what your saying, and believe me Gov't sticking thier nose into ANYTHING except for defense is something i am against with a purple passion, so i think its safe to assume you and I are on the same page there.
The ONLY thing the gov't is supposed to be doing for us is protecting us and securing our borders. The fact that we have millions apon millions of ILLEGALS in this country is discusting and shows where the gov't priorities lie.
The part about technology and taking the next step makes sense but only to a certain degree. Are you actually saying that all or even most of the manufacturing jobs that have gone to china are now being preformed by highly skilled laborers using the cutting edge of technology to put together all the flimsy garbage that can be found in every wally world, dollar tree, ect ect?
Not only are people working is sweat shops in china, but i believe they are sweat shops on steroids :) When was the last time you bought anything made over there that lasted a reasonable amount of time?
And also Dave, not to sound like a tyrant here, and this will probally we taken the wrong way, but in reference to your last sentence...Whats wrong with maintaining an "empire" and our border access?
Tim, Howard; I didn't clarify
Tim, Howard; I didn't clarify very well, technology replaced many manufacturing jobs here. Other countries replaced the jobs that Americans didn't want to do for low pay. Same as agriculture, sort of, except that the workers are coming here for some of the agriculture jobs. Of course there are exceptions. I'm trying to point out that the future of this country and Batavia is a great example, is not manufacturing. Let's buy from China and whoever the stuff they make and sell them what we can do best.
Tim; your last paragraph: Empires always fail. We can't afford it. We have an open border with Canada without much problem. Stop worrying about the Mexicans coming in and focus on how we can continue making Americans prosperous. Again, it's not going to be manufacturing or cutting cabbage.
Empires always fall? Sheesh
Empires always fall? Sheesh mr. glass half empty :)
"Let's buy from China and whoever the stuff they make and sell them what we can do best."
Lets not :)
"Other countries replaced the jobs that americans didnt want to do for low pay"
The LOW PAY part is the ONLY accurate part of that sentence. I happen to know there are many people who would gladly do a manufacturing job for a living...Gladly. Its those kinds of jobs that made this country, and it is something WE DO WELL. (There is nothing more iritating that going into a wally world, buying a cheap, chinese product that breaks or wears out 6 months later that I remember buying a decade earlier and remembering how many YEARS it lasted) I would agree that those kinds of jobs are few and far in between and are moving overseas at an alarming rate, and you could be very right that it is not this country's future, but i believe its something worth fighting for to get back.
Dave, I would be concerned
Dave, I would be concerned that moving toward a "what we do best" economy as you map it out -- essentially saying "what we do best" is intellectual work.
I don't believe the Chinese are any less smart than we are, and there's more of them, so relying solely on intellectual capital is not a defensable competitive advantage.
We need a diversified economy that includes manufacturing.
Further, not every child born in this country is suited to become an engineer, and that isn't a comment at all on intellectual capability. You can have a very high IQ and still be best suited to working with your hands. If we don't have good paying manufacturing jobs we are simply consigning a whole class of people to having no future by low-paying service-sector jobs.
There is simply no reason -- other than unfair free-trade agreements -- that the U.S. can't continue to be a top product producing country. And I see no advantage to the United States, empire or not, in being weak in manufacturing. And I see no contradiction in being strong in manufacturing and strong in engineering, or other intellectually demanding pursuits.
To paraphrase Whitman, we contain a multitude.
I don't remember people that
I don't remember people that upset with illegals until the 1980's, when the courts started saying they had rights to education, social services and medical care. The cost for that came out of legal residents pockets in the form of higher taxes. Then it got worse with the idea of the drivers license for them. Those ideas and policies turned many citizens against them.
And "illegal" is still the key word here.
I look at this problem as
I look at this problem as three problems: 1) controlling the influx of illegal entries, 2) managing and keeping tabs on holders of visas and guest workers, 3) managing those who have illegally extended their presence in the U. S.
History has taught us that guards and walls do not deter those desperate enough to challenge them. The surest method for drying up the surge of emigres is to neutralize the disparity that exists between the two sides of the border. Foreign interests in Mexico- not just U. S. corporations- need to culture a supportive rather than exploitative relationship with Mexican (not to overlook Central and South American) labor and resources. Past economic and political arrogance has fashioned the dynamics on either side of the border, and it is overdue for repair. This is an international issue and must be dealt with as such.
Any temporary guest in this country should be monitored throughout the course of their stay. This is SOP in other nations, and should be likewise in the United States- especially since the advent of Homeland Security. If we choose to ignore our visitors, there is no one else to blame when they overstay their welcome. Also 79% of undocumented workers indicate that they would prefer temporary status, extended work privileges that presume eventual return to their native country.
Once an undocumented emigre has established him/herself in this country through employment and having children born in the United States, how can he/she be deported? Intuitively, if there is no legal ground aside from citizenship status; why boot them? Certainly the parents cannot be handled aside from their children, who are no less citizens because of their parents' status.
I see no reason NOT to expel an undocumented alien who is behaving criminally. Spying, assault, robbery, murder, rape, drug trafficking; these are cause for deportation. An undocumented- but otherwise law-abiding farmworker/maid/busboy/servant with a spouse and American-born kids does not warrant the same treatment.
We would be farther ahead to establish a work program that accounts for foreign laborers, allows some privileges such as driver's license and access to basic education and medical service, while monitoring such guest workers in anticipation of their voluntary leave. This would be more practical than forcing them into a paranoid subclass that promotes exploitation and criminal behavior. It also presents an opportunity to fashion a legal status to disambiguate the gray areas of citizenship concerning offspring of non-citizens.
Not according to the 9/11
Not according to the 9/11 Commission.
At least 3 of the 9/11 pilots had fallen out of status and were in the country illegally at the time of the attacks.
The 5 passports recovered or available digitally after the attacks were found to be altered.
What's the difference between obtaining US entry by surptitiously crossing a border or through fraudulent documents. They're both illegal.
Creating a simpler path to citizenship for illegal immigrants would just make it easier for terrorists.
Man, spout off and defend
Man, spout off and defend yourself from all angles. First off, I thank you all for making me really think more than I normally do LOL.
1st: Howard "Further, not every child born in this country is suited to become an engineer, and that isn't a comment at all on intellectual capability. You can have a very high IQ and still be best suited to working with your hands. If we don't have good paying manufacturing jobs we are simply consigning a whole class of people to having no future by low-paying service sector jobs." sorry for repeating your whole paragraph, I believe that an enterprising American with an average or better IQ will find something to do that is meaningful to them, that may be flipping burgers or washing cars, I support honest labor whether manual or intellectual. All manufacturing isn't going to go overseas either, we'll still always build things, just not like we used to.
2. John and CM; I think you are both on the same page and if so, me too. All guest workers need to be "on the books" paying taxes and contributing, no more off the books/under the table stuff. That's the only way we can offer health care, legal aid etc; but if they don't want to be citizens, fine. If they don't want to speak English, fine. We shouldn't cater to them and pay for interpreters etc. And yes, send the criminals back.
3. Tim; you and I can probably agree that if there was a big enough market for any item, and they could get the price necessary to make it,somebody would start making it. The cheap, crappy products you describe are here because people buy them.
4. JoAnne: the 9/11 hijackers ENTERED legally, some stayed after their visas expired, that is the fault of the immigration people. If they entered with altered passports, that is the fault of whoever examined them. Like I wrote earlier, there'll always be bad guys, different issue. CM wrote "History has taught us that guards and walls do not deter those desperate enough to challenge them." Absolutely correct CM
I just don't know what to say
I just don't know what to say I know a lot of people who have Mexican kids that were born here and there mother is American and the father is Mexican or the other way around or both parents are Mexican Then what do you do in this case. If they know the language and they can speak it and they understand the law as well I think I would give them a chance We all don't live forever.
C.M. says "An undocumented-
C.M. says "An undocumented- but otherwise law-abiding farmworker/maid/busboy/servant with a spouse and American-born kids does not warrant the same treatment."
message to illegals...as soon as you cross the border go to the nearest farm, hotel, resturant, etc. find a girl, impregnate her and enjoy your welcome to America. I stated some alternative but absurd comparisons earlier, the point being that the original question was "Should there be a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants?" the only path after being caught doing something illegal should be some sort of punishment, whether it be fines, deportation, or imprisonment. When did our course of action towards illegal activity change?
That's a very good question
That's a very good question Jeff.
If illegal workers are rewarded with citizenship and become eligible for employment "on the books" as Dave suggests, I don't think they will settle for menial farm work for very long.
They will move on to better jobs and the next wave of illegals will move in to take on the jobs that they no longer want...and so on and so on.
I agree with Jeff that there needs to be some sort of punishment for both worker and employer.
Jeff, I agree that illegal
Jeff, I agree that illegal activity should not be rewarded. I contrast the millions of anonymous, productive illegals who enjoy de facto citizenship with the few criminals that are sensationalized.
Illegal immigration actually mirrors legal immigration, lagging in numbers, but paralleling national origin. Compared to the 1990s, illegal immigration has slowed due to border enforcement and reduction of job opportunities relative to the recession. However, as long as the United States sanctions legal immigration, there will be those who follow family members, the trail of financial success or the siphon effect that began in the 1965 with the rescinding of the quota system and was maximized by IRCA mass amnesty in 1986.
The complexities defy easy answers and heighten the level of frustration as our economy languishes and unemployment rises- a double whammy that never fails to produce an outsider to blame.
A rational solution will emerge when cooler heads prevail.
One must keep in mind that Mexicans have been alternately treated hot and cold by the United States. During the late 1800s when anti-Chinese sentiments rose, California welcomed Hispanics to work orchards. Southwestern states' efforts to repatriate Mexicans reversed the trend. Labor shortages during World War I again saw a need for Mexican labor. The Great Depression reversed that. World War II invited Mexican laborers back- only to be squelched by Operation Wetback in the 1950s. Currently states like Colorado that depend on seasonal/migrant farm laborers are drastically undermanned. Despite raising wages from $7.50 to $10 per hour, laws to discourage illegals have scared away half the workforce.
One might question our own ability to make up our minds.