Having lived a number of years in the Valley of the Sun, I can first-hand attest to the overwhelming presence of undocumented immigrants. A good majority of these people have criminal backgrounds, and they are bringing their lawless ways to the US.
Do you know what US state leads the nation in kidnappings? That's right, Arizona. Stolen cars? 3 times the national average. And both of these stats are fueled by illegals from south of the border.
I applaud the state of Arizona for doing the federal government's job. Our borders need to be secured, and the feds are ignoring one of two things they should be doing.
National defense and the health of it's citizens. Everything else should fall to the states.
This is from "Organizing for America"'s web sight. These are Obama's campaign talking points on immigration:
*
Barack Obama will secure our borders:
Obama and Biden want to preserve the integrity of our borders. They support additional personnel, infrastructure, and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.
*
Improve our immigration system:
Obama and Biden believe we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.
*
Bring people out of the shadows:
Obama and Biden support a system that requires undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.
Rhetoric, pure and simple. And before the Bush bashing commences, allow me to express my disappointment in the previous administration to address the same issue. I don't care if it's a donkey or an elephant(or neither), but something needs to be done.
First things first. Bud you shouldn't have to disavow G.W. when you express dissatisfaction with President Obama. That is not how our society should work. (I know idealistic right)
Secondly, as much as people want to jump up and slap the racist label on the state of Arizona and the supporters of this new immigration bill they should step back and think before they speak. The people of Az are fed up. The supporters of Illegal immigration would have you believe that most illegals are just honest hard working people trying to make a better life for their families.
There are a lot of them, however, there are a good portion of the people illegally crossing the border that are not even Mexican. You have Chinese crossing the border as well do to the lax control on ports south of the border. It is easier for international human smugglers to unload their cargo in a non-US port.
There are also people from countries in the middle east that cross our southern border. So this problem is not as cut and dry as the Illegal Immigration lobby would have you believe.
Illegal Immigration is just what it says it is. it is Illegal. It doesn't matter why the person was trying to come to the U.S. If they did not come through legal channels then they should expect nothing less than to be detained and returned to their country of origin. All countries have immigration laws. America did not just make them up in order to piss off the Mexicans. Mexico even has immigration laws.
This law being enacted by the state of AZ should be a cry for help from that state to the Federal government. Obviously business as usual has not being getting the job done there. The past administration decided to build a joke of a fence. This will not solve the problem either.
The federal government needs to step up to the plate on this one.
What makes this law racist is that it targets one race of people only. Someone with a frenchie moustache wearing a beret, smoking a french cigarette out of a long effeminent looking cigarette holder, is not going to be asked to show his papers.
Conversely, many multi generational native Americans with brown skin are going to be questioned because they are of Mexican decent. Think of it this way. What if NYS was having problems with Africans illegally crossing the border through Canada. Would black people in NYS get angry when cops started asking for their papers?
You won't find any Bush bashing here Bud. GWB had it mostly right when he started his push for immigration reform and none of his ideas involved rounding up brown people and asking for their papers. I only wish that Bush had focused on immigration earlier in his presidency; he may have been able to secure himself a real legacy.
George- I would think that a Texan would be in favor of controlling our borders. Perhaps because you don't live in Laredo or El Paso, you may not be as concerned about the murders that happen daily from Mexican drug gangs.
I am not racist, rather I am an American who loves his country. I am all for LEGAL immigration, as that is the foundation our nation is built upon.
I can tell you, I know 2nd and 3rd generation Mexicans in Phoenix who still can't(won't) speak English. The legal immigrants of the 19th and 20th century would never dream of asking America to assimilate to them. No more. Slowly but surely, the US is turning into North Mexico.
This law allows for questioning of immigration status. Just like when anyone else in this country is pulled over we are all asked to show a license and registration (show us your papers).
The problem we have in this country is we subsidize our poor to not work. This entitlement mentality also has some blame in drawing illegals to our shores. I for one welcome all peoples to this country, just come legally.
If the federal government can't (or more likely - won't) enforce our borders to keep the illegals out, then I guess the states are going to have to do something whether they (or we) like it or not. The expense involved in having all these illegals within their state boundaries is overwhelming to say nothing of the danger to the honest immigrants and citizens.
Bud, I never insinuated the people in favor of this law are racist. I'm just saying the law is racist.The drug gangs are a totally different story and that's not what this law is about. They have plenty of laws for that already. There are lots of Mexicans in Austin without a green card. It's don't ask, don't tell and they work hard and often get cheated or robbed. There is more crime perpetrated on them than they commit in the community and it's almost always white people providing the employment opportunities that draw them here in the first place. I expect law enforcement in Arizona to ignore the law unless someone breaks some other law that applies to everyone, and not just Mexicans.
I wouldn't say the people who supported the law are racist. Nor would I say the law is racist.
My concern is that the implementation will eventually lead to racist conduct.
The law does open the door to racial profiling (both overtly and inadvertently), and the untended consequences of that could be less than desirable.
You can always say there is a good intention behind a law -- just like our politicians say with Leandra's Law -- but unless you try to account for the full impact of the legislation, then you're not making very good law.
Posted by Howard Owens on May 3, 2010 - 12:48pm
"I wouldn't say the people who supported the law are racist. Nor would I say the law is racist".
I hate to say this but I think Arizona knows what they need, despite lack of federal government participation ?
(let's ask someone that lives in Arizona)
"My concern is that the implementation will eventually lead to racist conduct".
It is too late for that now. I revert to states rights being applicable in Arizona. ONLY.
"The law does open the door to racial profiling (both overtly and inadvertently), and the untended consequences of that could be less than desirable".
I agree. It has always happened and will continue without admission.
"You can always say there is a good intention behind a law -- just like our politicians say with Leandra's Law -- but unless you try to account for the full impact of the legislation, then you're not making very good law".
I agree. "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right".
Thomas Paine
Mr. Richardson-
I just got done reading the actual text of the law.
No where in the law does it require "whitey" law man to round up the brown people.
What it does do is allow and require non-federal law enforcement agencies to cooperate with federal agencies in determining the immigration status of people that they have come into to contact with. It does not require the law enforcement agencies to randomly stop people to ask them for their papers.
I'm originally from southern California where illegal immigration is just as real a problem as it is in Arizona. I have only been in NY since 2006. So what I can say about illegal immigration is that it is a problem. It is not going to go away by giving amnesty. That is a very noble and idealistic thought. However it is not realistic.
Here is a for instance for those that think all the poor illegal immigrants are just being picked on.
Jeremiah, how unique of you to actually read the law before commenting on it instead of following the media talking points. The law does nothing more than give the same(already existing) powers that federal agents had to Arizona police officers. If the law opens up the opportunity for racial or ethnic profiling, then it did before and no one was complaining about it then. The feds were not getting it done and so the law gives more law enforcement officers the ability to stem the tide of illegal immigrants while specifically addressing profiling. The governor of Arizona should steal a line from the President and announce that the protesters ought to be thanking her instead of demonstrating.
The odd thing is that I always thought Arizona had some pretty stiff laws as it was.
When you drive into the state you pass through an inspection station that has mirrors that check under a vehicle.
I truly hope that law spreads like wildfire to ALL the Continental United States. If you dont think we have an illegal Mexican problem up here too your kidding yourself (although the poor people of Arizona/Texas do have it much worse, and my heart goes out to them)
Also, keep in mind it would be easy for anyone up north to be critical of this bill since our problems with illegals are not as bad as the border states, but just try to put yourself into thier shoes. Can you imagine those filthy, lawless people invading "little ol" Batavia and bringing thier violence here. Thank God we border Canada, if they decided to start sneaking over here the worst we would get would be spontaneous hockey games breaking out in the streets :)
Posted by Jeremiah Pedro on May 3, 2010 - 4:37pm
Bea- Are you thinking of the agriculture inspection stations going into California or the official border crossings from Mexico into Az?
I've never gone from Mexico to Arizona, so it has to be the agricultural inspection stations. The mirrors fascinated me.
Tim said "Can you imagine those filthy, lawless people invading "little ol" Batavia and bringing thier violence here."
Wow. Filthy? Pretty harsh broad brushing of an issue that has many more facets than just the lawless undesirable's that you've narrowed this down to.
Those "illegal Mexicans" up here are picking our cabbage, onions and apples. They live, for the most part, in the shadows working harder than you and I probably ever could.
Posted by Lorie Longhany on May 3, 2010 - 8:09pm
Tim said "Can you imagine those filthy, lawless people invading "little ol" Batavia and bringing thier violence here."
Wow. Filthy? Pretty harsh broad brushing of an issue that has many more facets than just the lawless undesirable's that you've narrowed this down to.
Those "illegal Mexicans" up here are picking our cabbage, onions and apples. They live, for the most part, in the shadows working harder than you and I probably ever could
...and don't forget that many of them are here legally, does that make them any less "filthy"?
The "filthy" remark made me cringe. But from context, I'm not sure he means all Mexicans or just the ones who cross the border and cause problems (which undeniably is a problem).
If I thought for sure he meant all Mexicans, or all immigrants from South of the Border, I would have deleted the comment as inappropriate for this site.
The use is ambiguous, though.
For the record, as a native of Southern California, I have nothing but love and appreciation for Mexicans -- love the food, love the music, love the culture -- and some of the kindest, most respectful, most joyful and hardest working people I've known are Mexicans.
One of the "unexpected" outcomes of this new law so far is that many illegals are not taking chances and are going back to Mexico only to have their jobs filled by unemployed legal American citizens.
Yes Howard, the "filthy" part was absolutely refering to the illegals (the trouble making illegals) although there is no such thing as a "good" illegal alien. Example: You try to put a good face on the muck workers right? Those "poor, unfortunates, picking our cabbage, onions, and apples" If they are here legally fine, but if they are not, they are simply UNWELCOME and taking jobs from us. And anyone, ESPECIALLY in this economy that would make the statement that they are only doing jobs that no one else would do, are so wrong. When there are so many people out of work there should be NO SUCH THING as a job that you wouldnt do. If i did not have a job, i would have no problem picking cabbage, apples, and onions, i would even pick things i dont like....Like beets...yuck! :) Lets not forget that good old fashioned HARD WORKING jobs are exactly what built this country. Think about all the jobs that would be created by deporting the illegals. That 9 or 10 percent unemployment rate would plummet if suddenly there were a few million less illegals around. Don't get me wrong, i have NO problems with Mexicans at all, just look at Salma Hayak :)
I am extremely proud of the fact that the united states is a "melting pot" and ANYONE who wants a better way of life, as long as they are willing to work hard and OBEY THE LAW should be welcomed with open arms....HOWEVER, go through the proper channels!!! Do whatever it is you need to do through your country and this one to come over here the legal way. We really need to make an example here and show the world that you can not simply sneak over here. What kind of message will that be sending to our middle eastern ememies who would love to cross the border so that they could cause trouble. We simply need armed guards on the borders now, armed guards equipted with LIVE ammunition, you can figure out the rest :)
This is a problem that the USA will have to deal with very swiftly. I am sure we can all agree liberal or conservative that the mexican gov't is a corrupt one and they have been and will continue to do NOTHING about the unsecured borders and stopping thier own people from sneaking over here. The ironic part of this whole thing is that on a federal level the ONLY thing the gov't is supposed to do is protect us, and its failing miserably at that.
Howard, this may be very off topic but you have mentioned many times on here that you are a former "Californian" and you may have answered this before, and if so i appologize for asking something that everyone may already know, and if you don't mind me asking, but what exactly made you leave California for New York? I think we can safely rule out "favorable weather conditions" as a reason :)
Tim, I would suggest reading Tom Rivers book, Farm Hands. It's a first person account of local farm work. The farm workers from south of the border are highly skilled, productive and work circles around most American workers (many who don't make it through three hours, let alone through a pay period) Farmer's need a reliable workforce that can put in the back breaking work. They don't have the time to watch workers leave at break time never to return. The Mexican and Southern cone workers provide that. Your platitudes (capitalized for emphases) make good sound bites for an issue that evokes anger and frustration, but we need fair reform that also recognizes the human aspect. There's a demand for this workforce or they wouldn't be here.
60+ years ago the farm labor truck would drive through Batavia's southside picking up the Italian immigrants -- women and children -- who labored in the fields. A good friend of mine worked the muck along side her brothers and sisters when she was as young as 7 years old. She described the competition jumping onto the back of the pick up truck to make that trip over to Elba. While this was a character builder how many of us want our children doing this today? Besides child labor laws prohibiting it now.
The local farm workforce (legal and many illegal) do contribute to our local economy. They buy groceries, order pizza, buy clothes for their children. They are my neighbors, yet I rarely see them, only walking home from the farm. Occasionally if I have to stop at the grocery store late at night I'll see a family shopping and I've wondered if they've waited until late so they can be more inconspicuous or if they just got done working a 16 hour day.
I can remember those trucks coming through the southside to pick up people to work. I can, also, remember one of my cousins being picked up in Oakfield to work on the muck. My father, as a young teen, also worked on the muck. 80 years ago, my grandparents (Italian immigrants) would pack up their family and spend the summer in Lyons to work in the fields. They were today's version of migrant workers.
One of my sons worked on the muck while in high school. It is back breaking work topping onions and cabbages.
I can remember him coming home with the skin on his hands cracked and bleeding. Yet, he went back every day.
That was 27 years ago.
How many high school kids would do that today? If there was such a supply of able bodied workers ready to get to the fields, why aren't they there?
Tim, The Batavian was started by a big newspaper company based in Fairport. That company hired me and moved me out here in the fall of 2006. In late 2007, I was asked to come up with a plan for an online-only news site. That plan became The Batavian, which we launched May 1, 2008. In Feb. 2009, the company decided it cold no longer afford me and consolidated my job in the person of somebody based in Chicago. But they allowed me to take over The Batavian. Billie and I decided that seemed like a good move for us.
And actually, we love the weather here. We love four season. We enjoy the winter. And actually, where we often enjoyed hot weather in California (the last place we lived, Bakersfield, is one of the hottest places in the state), we don't like it hot here at all. It starts getting into the 70s here and we just think it's damn hot.
We really do enjoy WNY. There's lots to do and see. The people are great. There's a lot of potential here.
The real question isn't why we came -- that was just a job -- the real question is why we stay, and that's because we love it here. We don't miss California at all.
John, you're eligible to draw unemployment so long as you can't find a job in your line of work.
You're not expected to look for a job outside of your area of training.
So if you're an out of work accountant, and nobody is hiring accountants, you won't be asked to apply for work as a restaurant manager.
Of course, conversely, if you're a restaurant owner who needs a new manager, you wouldn't want to hire an accountant with no experience in the restaurant business.
And based on what I learned about farm work from Tim Rivers' articles, if I were a farmer who grew cabbage or had a dairy, I wouldn't want to hire the accountant either -- he or she wouldn't have the proper training or experience, and there would be a big risk of that new worker quitting after about four hours.
I've referenced before the book "The Collapse of Complex Societies" (which, disclosure, I haven't read, only read about). This strikes me as another complex society problem. We've created a system where what seems like a simple problem -- farmers need labor -- into a difficult situation where it defies easy answers. Farm work has gotten more specialized and complex, and our system of education and social safety nets make a certain class of citizens essentially unsuited for work that in simpler times anybody could or would do if necessary. And whatever solution we come up with to patch it up, will make the system even more complex, making the next new related problem that arises even more difficult to solve.
It is heart breaking when families are torn apart.
The people who are arrested for violating Immigration laws have put themselves in this position. They knew the risks of coming to America Illegally. They felt that the benefits outweighed the risks though.
The hard working farm hands that are trying to earn money to provide for their families are only one facet of this problem we know as Illegal immigration. Most people would agree with you that the average American would not be willing to perform the type of work that the farm hands do on a daily basis. However, most people are not frustrated with these farm hands, who regardless of intentions are still in violation of U.S. Federal law. It would be no different than if you were printing off counterfeit money to help provide for your family. You would still be in violation of U.S. Federal law.
Most people have a problem with the Illegal immigrants who were criminals in their country of origin and have continued that life of crime in this country. They are frustrated with the Illegal immigrants that steal Identities in order to get public assistance or a drivers license or even just so they can have a social security number that will allow them to get job outside of agricultural work.
Here is a question that I don't know the answer to but I find interesting. How much of the money that the Illegal immigrants make doing jobs most American would not do, stays in the local communities and how much of the money is sent back to their country of origin? I would imagine the majority of the money is sent back to the country of origin.
OK, I just skimmed thru the comments.....now my 2 cents.
The bottom line here, is the word "illegal." I don't think anyone has a problem with those coming here legally, like most of our ancestors did!! (I certainly DON'T).
The ILLEGALS are taxing our systems: schools, health, and welfare and legal!! Wake up! Our local detention center, ICE, is full! The people in there ARE criminals, not just illegals. Why even have Border Patrol if anyone is allowed in the USA? Let's just take down the border checks totally, if it is ok to come as you wish.
I am sick of the bleeding heart liberal mentality. Our kids or grandkids are going to pay the penalty more than we are now, the USA is going down the drain, and other countries are laughing at us.
Get a social security number, and pay taxes like the rest of us!!
I don't have a problem with foreign workers coming here to do "work that Americans won't do", I have a problem allowing illegals. Lorie, you wrote above about people living in the shadows and shopping late at night, the Daily News article tells of families torn apart and uprooted, those are the problems created when we allow illegal immigrants to get a false sense of security. That's not the America I support, I think everyone should have equal access to Life,Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. The American Dream is supposed to be work hard, live within your means, stay out trouble with the Law and feel secure. Yeah, that's pretty hard for anyone these days, but at least I don't have to worry about pissing off the boss or anyone else and having him turn me in, if I get a speeding ticket or get in an accident, it may cost me some money, but my family and i won't get sent back to Denmark or wherever. I'll agree the immigration laws need to be simplified, but until they do, we are not doing anyone any favors by letting this situation go on. Except for employers who want cheap labor and like having something to hold over those employees.
So, secure the borders, create a path for those already here to become "legal" within a set time frame, send the criminals home and don't let it happen anymore. As an aside 3 of my grandparents were immigrants, one was basically "illegal" although granted, things were different then (1913). Also, 2 of my wife's grandparents were also immigrants.
Howard,
I understand the unemployment policy. My point is that after a year of being paid unemployment, and still no work in your field, should you be required to look for any work, or be allowed to continue to draw payments?
What if you were laid off from basically an unskilled job to start with? Or you are not willing to move to an area of the country that is looking for your job skill?
People support illegals working saying nobody will do the work they do. But we pay people unemployment/welfare for years because they can not find a job. I support unemployment payments, but only for so long. Maybe we have to look at this.
There's a lot of drawing a distinction between between "legal" and "illegal."
But that distinction is merely a piece of paper. It's an easy fix: Make it easier for everyone who wants to come here for a job to do so easily and legally.
John, I agree with you, but it's way more complicated than that. How would it work? Would unemployment mandate laid off electricians,carpenters, plumbers, teachers, bankers, and all the unemployed to take assignments at local farms? Would there be exemptions so people could opt out for health reasons? It would certainly show some character, but lets be realistic. The other key to the demand for workers from Mexico and South America is the skill sets they bring. They are very very productive. The struggles that the farmers already endure would be compounded by an unproductive, untrained workforce.
When my husband was in the Marine Corp, we had something to come home for one fall and we couldn't really afford the trip. So after we arrived here, we went to a local orchard and picked apples to earn the dollars to pay for our trip. My husband picked apples and worked at the stand at McPhearson's orchard when he was in high school, so he was a lot better than I was. It was hard work.
John, just because an employer has an opening and a long-time unemployed person walks in, doesn't mean that person is getting the job. The job candidate still needs to be qualified for the job and convince the hiring manager that he or she will stick around for some time.
It cost time and money to hire people, no matter what the job. The smart manager will let a position go vacant before hiring the wrong person.
All this talk of "people are out of work, they should take any job that they can get" totally ignores the fact it takes two to tango.
It is just simply exponentially harder to get a job you have no experience, training or previous demonstrated inclination for.
I'm not saying there are not slackers and people who take advantage of the system, but it's simply not enough to say "they should take whatever job they can get" because you can't force businesses to hire people they don't want.
A few weeks ago, at a town hall meeting, someone suggested that farmers hire agents to set up their recruiting stations in Mexico and other countries. The gist of the suggestion was that the people would be hired there, run through an investigation, then issued their green cards before they entered the U.S.
Which sounded good until the person also insisted that each worker must have a command of the our language, both written and oral and a few other regulations that would reject almost 80% of those looking for work.
Lorie,
The excuse we get for illegals working here is that nobody else will do the jobs.
We don't have to mandate anyone take a farm or other job illegals do, but maybe after one year of unemployment payments, they should stop getting them. I think one (1) year is enough when there are jobs.
And for people with medical problems, there are other programs other than unemployment (SSI is one).
Unemployment insurance was meant to help people short time, between jobs due to no fault of their own. It also was set up when there are no jobs available. The program is a good one and works.
But we told here there are jobs, so many jobs we need illegals to do them.
How do you justify paying somebody over a year unemployment/welfare when there are jobs that need illegals?
Contrasting illegal Mexican entry with European immigration- which wave of Europeans are being used as an example? Is a new myth being fabricated- American colonists welcomed by Native American customs officials. Nineteenth Century waves of European immigrants were no-less resented by existing residents. City slums and railroad-building for them, compared to the barrios and field toil reserved for Hispanics.
Filthy? What context excuses a categorical slur on the hygienic fitness of a class of people? Filthy is not interchangeable with lawless or troublesome. The word means unclean in any context. At the very least, the word was chosen to be provocative.
The federal government has jurisdiction over federal borders. Arizona has an obligation to maintain peace within its borders. The question remains whether Arizona's new immigration law is intended to administer local peace or affect federal immigration policy?
Probable cause is required to detain or hold for investigation. The Fourteenth Amendment prevents race from being construed with cause.
As stated, Hispanic laborers(legal or otherwise)would not be here if the work wasn't waiting for them. Arguing that unemployed citizens should have priority when work is given to an illegal is unrealistic. Jobs are given to those who apply for them- not persons who SHOULD apply for them. There used to be an office of the state labor department in Elba. The office didn't go away because the jobs dried up. The office went away because no one was applying.
Politics can't farm. Farmers have it hard enough without "well-intentioned" opinion-holders separating their crops from the labor force that tends their fields.
I think just about anyone would do whatever is required to feed their family. That's why most of the folks in question are here in the first place.
I've said before on this very site that the fix to illegal Mexican immigration needs to start in Mexico. In my humble opinion, we would be better served spending money south of the border assisting the Mexican government with their effort to stem the tide of systemic corruption and drug violence.
If there were jobs for these folks in Mexico, if they could trust their law enforcement and if they didn't live in fear of stray bullets, an illegal jaunt across the border to find work may not be so enticing.
The reason I think Arizona's new law is so stupid (other than the racial profiling)is that it doesn't actually solve any problems. Arizona's government is going to spend a pile of money on arresting, detaining, processing and deporting illegal aliens. After they ship the folks back to Mexico and points beyond, those same people are going to come right back for the same reasons that brought them here in the first place.
Whether you want them here or not, these folks are going to keep coming across the border because the risk outweighs the benefit. I'd do the same damn thing to feed my family if I found it necessary. We've got it good here and I suppose it's easy to forget that sometimes.
I'll close here by saying this: What do we call it when people who see a demand fill it? What principle leads us to believe that there is such a thing as acceptable risk and those willing to take that risk will likely see a reward? This is the free market at work folks and illegal workers in this country seem to have a pretty good grasp of the principle.
Chris its already working the illegals are leaving Arizona and going to other states. Texas will more than likely develop similar legislation. The US is not responsible for Mexico's problems and should not be spending our money to police their problems.
Rich, we're already spending money to fix Mexico's problems. What do you think this is all about? If Mexico wasn't in shambles these folks wouldn't need to come here in the first place.
Everyone acts like these people have rights if you are not an american citizen you have no rights. I applaud Arizona for taking care of this on theire own. Enforce the existing laws secure the boarder and screw Mexico. It is not our job to police the world. Arizona is now the last place illegals want to go. Suprised texans don't have a hunting season yet.
I agree that it's not our job to police the world. However, when the failures of another government directly affect our ability to enforce our own laws and provide for our own people I think we should probably do something. My problem with Arizona's law is that it will inevitably prove ineffective as well as unconstitutional.
By the way, any person living within our borders has rights. The Constitution makes no mention of citizenship when detailing the basic rights of the people here.
That is a substantial portion of Mexico's GNP. If the money stopped, so would Mexico's economy, or it would have to turn more to the drug trade than it already does.
As for the Constitution -- the Bill of Rights was founded on the principle of Natural Rights: All people have inalienable rights. It's not about citizenship. It's about humanship. To truly believe in the Constitution is to believe that all people, regardless of race, creed, skin color, religion, country of origin or country of residence have the same basic, fundamental rights. To deny one person his or her rights is to deny us all those same rights.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
While that is the Declaration of Independence, it is the heart and soul of the Bill of Rights.
By the way, if Arizona or any other state really wanted to stem the tide of illegal workers, all they would have to do is assess punitive fines and prison terms on the companies and people that hire them. Of course no state would be willing to do that, first because we all know that the labor is valuable, second because that valuable labor is off the books (good for the companies,) third because those companies donate money to the folks who write the laws.
In the words of the venerable George Carlin: 'It's all bullshit and it's bad for ya.'
Just got back from an errand to Williamsville, I was listening to a show on NPR about this subject. The reporter said that most of the migrant workers or opportunists that come here to work for a while and send money home aren't coming to the US in nearly as many numbers as past years, due to the economy. He opined that the ones here now are intending to stay.
Makes sense to me. Now then would be the time to step up border security, run off the trouble-makers and leaches & create a path for the "good people" to become citizens. Of course, the jerks who are supposed to represent us in Washington won't do that because this is an election year and polls probably show that Americans hate Wall Street fatcats more than they do illegal aliens, so that's what they'll concentrate on. Vote them all out!!!!!
Any person that sneaks thier way over here without going through the proper channels is breaking the law regardless of WHY they are coming over here. If you or I were to break the law in anyway we would be punished, they are not. Plus you bleeding hearts want so bad to put a good face on this by pointing out the migrant workers that you are totally ignoring the cold blooded murderers and drug runners that are running rampant and who are actually starting to out number the supposed "good ones" that you actually want us to feel sorry for. There are people dying in arizona by the hands of these animals sneaking over the borders and the federal gov't is doing nothing to protect its people. (which again is the ONLY job the federal gov't was ever intended to do)
Here is what we do....
1. Our gov't contacts the CORRUPT mexican gov't and tells them to do something about the illegals sneaking over cause starting now we are going to start shooting.
2.Round up every last law breaking illegal that has sneaked over here and ship them back to mexico.
3.At the same time all 50 states have a national guard right? How long do they have to serve, like 3 or 4 weeks a year or something like that right? So take the guardsmen from states 1-10 for a month take them to the shooting range, let them practice up, then take them to our borders and tell them, if anyone crosses this line shoot them. Next month those guardsmen go home then the guard from states 11-20 get called to the border and you continuously rotate them.
It is estimated that 11 million illegals live in the country (give or take). If we say adios muchachos to all them our unemployment would absolutely PLUMMET, our economy would strengthen greatly, our people would be ALOT safer, and it would send a strong message that this country is not the joke that many other countries think we are.
And the part that makes this a great country is that all of those who would have been deported are welcome to APPLY to come back. If they have no criminal records, i say let them in, let them work, let them LEARN OUR LANGUAGE, live and let live but do it the RIGHT way.
Lorie: That book suggestion is interesting...But is farm work really that "skilled" that you or I could not learn it relativily quickly if we had to? Now let me make 2 things really clear, i have never done farm work, but from what i have seen it looks to be about the hardest work a person could do, and with the exception of the american soldier, i think the american farmer is about the most Red, White, and Blue job anyone could have. I hold farmers in the highest regard. With that being said, the american worker is the hardest worker in the world. (well at least we used to be, when i see the up and coming generation i get kind of scared, but at least this last generation (around Bea's age group) really helped to shape this country) anyhoo, my point is...As long as your not afraid of an honest HARD days work, couldnt anyone be trained to do it? If so, think of what that could mean to our unemployment if we were to get rid of the illegals and take over the jobs ourselves.
Tim, you understand that we're the ones who have incentivized these people to come here in the first place right?
Are you willing to take your strong law enforcement stand all the way to the companies who hire these workers? Are you aware that many of these companies actually foot the bill for the illegal border crossings? Are you willing to open fire on Purdue Farms and other well known, enormous corporations who hire these folks?
I'm just shocked that folks actually believe that anyone in this country is really serious about meaningful immigration reform and law enforcement.
If we boot out all the illegal workers, American companies would have to hire Americans and American workers want things like minimum wage, health benefits, unemployment insurance, worker's comp, paid vacations, paid holidays, fair pay for overtime, the opportunity to unionize etc... Obviously, the American companies who hire illegals have no interest whatsoever in providing these things or they wouldn't be employing an illegal workforce in the first place.
This whole thing is so tongue in cheek it makes me want to puke. There are real solutions for this but no one has tried them yet. Get your quote pens ready because I'm going to say something I never thought I would: George W. Bush was well on the way to getting this right. If you want to pass meaningful immigration reform, give him a call and he'll tell you all about amnesty and how to go about it. Get these people work visas, get them on the tax rolls, and fast track them to citizenship so they can bring their families here as well. Make the companies that continue to hire illegals just to save a buck pay $2500 per day per worker in fines and jail company owners who continue to break the law. We'll end up paying ten bucks a head for lettuce, but the job will be done and the middle class in America will have grown.
Meanwhile Tim, I like your idea about opening fire on the drug traffickers.
Tim, you wrote: "3.At the same time all 50 states have a national guard right? How long do they have to serve, like 3 or 4 weeks a year or something like that right?"
Obviously, you haven't been paying much attention. The National Guards have been serving repeated deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan for years now. It's part of why states are going broke but noone talks about that. They are tired out, and have had their equipment decimated by overseas wars. Border Guards are also being sent to Iraq & Afghanistan to train them how to secure their borders. (Hope they do a better job) We'll have to hire illegal alien riflemen.
Dave,
Just for the record, the federal government pays for the National Guard when on active duty, here or overseas. The Feds also pay for the weekend drills and annual training.
Ok Chris although i absolutely stand behind my opinion of what the solution should be, i will say that yeah i left out one very wrong doer here, The companies that employee these people. You make a perfect point, and you are absolutely right about it. But that plan you speak of is assuming that these people WANT to become citizens, and not just want to funnel our money across the border, at least with my way we are forcing them outta here, and to go that extra mile (literally) to truly become a legal citizen because we are starting with a clean slate. I am so uncomfortable with the whole "lets give ammnisty to the ones that are already here" thought process. It just sends a very weak message.
We are a sovereign nation with real laws and rules about protecting ourselves and we need to stop bending the rules and start to stand strong and enforce those laws.
Questions come to mind about this plan. How does this plan seperate the drug trafficers, murders, ect from the ones who actually want to work? Because they would get to stay here as well right? Plus wouldnt that company that is being threatened by daily fines actually save money (compared to paying those fines) by hiring an american worker with fair wages, ect ect? Plus no one says that the farmer has to pay a top wage or give benefits, cause like you said a head of lettuce would be 10 bucks...LOL
Evil walmart found a way to not pay medical insurance, they make sure there employees dont get overtime, cant the farmer get away with this too? I know that sounds kind of sleazy to say, (which is why i refered to them as EVIL walmart) but the point is cant he hire REAL AMERICAN workers and keep his costs down like any other company now days and still turn a profit without 10 dollar heads of lettuce? :)
In the late 60's I cut cabbage for a a farmer near South Byron that my Aunt knew. My cousin knew I needed a part time job and he was going to do it too. I think they paid us $5 a row and the rows were about 150 yards long. It was the hardest work I ever did in my life and my back killed me, I think I made about $20 a day. None of the high school kids could cut more than one row at a time and the harvest was going real slow until the migrant workers arrived. They all had custom knives and cut two and sometimes three rows at a time. They flew by us and it wasn't long before I was working on the cabbage loading wagon. That was really hard too, but nothing compared to being stooped over all day long. When you finally stand up, you're not standing very straight. I was thrilled once the harvest was over and I was unemployed again. Did I mention it was freezing cold and rainy. The mud was horrible. My kids would laugh at me if I tried to get them to do that work for a single hour.
Dave, i know our brave guardsmen have been going oversees to Afghanistan and Iraq, but haven't they been recruiting new guardsmen to actually stay behind and guard the nation? If not then thats just really scary.
Bea my liberal friend, i very clearly in my last post said what DIFFICULT work it seemed to be, and the amount of respect i had for the AMERICAN FARMER never did i say it seemed easy, my point was that people probally could learn it though, if they were smart (i can tell an onion from a carrot) :) and if they were the HARD WORKING type of people.
Can't be that hard to work on the farm ..after all back in the 50's kids would pile into to trucks headed for the muck to work..I did it back when i was in high school...Most of these illegals are taking construction jobs and driving the labor rates down..These people are breaking the law and that is the bottom line the rest is all irrelevent..Credit to AZ for taking charge of their state..The message is loud and clear if you are here illegal you get sent back..They should take away all the illegal money they made in the USA and send them back..
Chris- Have you actually read the law? Go ahead and read it and then give me an example of how it is unconstitutional.
The law does solve a problem. The problem being the border patrol is too small or spread to thin to effectively enforce federal laws in AZ so the state of AZ wrote this law that allows local law enforcement, after having come in contact with someone lawfully to ask their immigration status. Like I said in a previous comment in this thread. No where in this law does it require "whitey" law man to arrest all Mexicans just so they can ask them if they are here legally or not. The law merely provides local law with the ability to assist federal law enforcement in doing their jobs.
Posted by Tim Howe on May 4, 2010 - 6:30pm
i had for the AMERICAN FARMER never did i say it seemed easy, my point was that people probally could learn it though, if they were smart (i can tell an onion from a carrot) :) and if they were the HARD WORKING type of people.
Only AMERICAN FARMERS? What about those, from other countries who work with a green card. No respect for them?
Yes, you can tell a carrot from an onion, but could you work, stooped over for 8 hours a day quickly topping those onions with an instrument that resembles a machete?
Yes, it can be learned, but in the meantime, entire fields of onions or cabbages could rot while 'smart' people learn the technique and acquire the dexterity needed.
Chris said,
By the way, if Arizona or any other state really wanted to stem the tide of illegal workers, all they would have to do is assess punitive fines and prison terms on the companies and people that hire them. Of course no state would be willing to do that, first because we all know that the labor is valuable, second because that valuable labor is off the books (good for the companies,) third because those companies donate money to the folks who write the laws.
In the words of the venerable George Carlin: 'It's all bullshit and it's bad for ya.'
Chris, you and Carlin are right but, they don't throw rich people in jail in this country for breaking the law. The busineses that give these people reason to break the law are the problem. They are the dealers.
It's much easier to blame the "huddled masses" for trying to make a better life for themselves. It's also much easier to trash immigrants, besides they look and talk different than us.
Having lived a number of
Having lived a number of years in the Valley of the Sun, I can first-hand attest to the overwhelming presence of undocumented immigrants. A good majority of these people have criminal backgrounds, and they are bringing their lawless ways to the US.
Do you know what US state leads the nation in kidnappings? That's right, Arizona. Stolen cars? 3 times the national average. And both of these stats are fueled by illegals from south of the border.
I applaud the state of Arizona for doing the federal government's job. Our borders need to be secured, and the feds are ignoring one of two things they should be doing.
National defense and the health of it's citizens. Everything else should fall to the states.
This is from "Organizing for
This is from "Organizing for America"'s web sight. These are Obama's campaign talking points on immigration:
*
Barack Obama will secure our borders:
Obama and Biden want to preserve the integrity of our borders. They support additional personnel, infrastructure, and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.
*
Improve our immigration system:
Obama and Biden believe we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.
*
Bring people out of the shadows:
Obama and Biden support a system that requires undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.
Rhetoric, pure and simple. And before the Bush bashing commences, allow me to express my disappointment in the previous administration to address the same issue. I don't care if it's a donkey or an elephant(or neither), but something needs to be done.
First things first. Bud you
First things first. Bud you shouldn't have to disavow G.W. when you express dissatisfaction with President Obama. That is not how our society should work. (I know idealistic right)
Secondly, as much as people want to jump up and slap the racist label on the state of Arizona and the supporters of this new immigration bill they should step back and think before they speak. The people of Az are fed up. The supporters of Illegal immigration would have you believe that most illegals are just honest hard working people trying to make a better life for their families.
There are a lot of them, however, there are a good portion of the people illegally crossing the border that are not even Mexican. You have Chinese crossing the border as well do to the lax control on ports south of the border. It is easier for international human smugglers to unload their cargo in a non-US port.
There are also people from countries in the middle east that cross our southern border. So this problem is not as cut and dry as the Illegal Immigration lobby would have you believe.
Illegal Immigration is just what it says it is. it is Illegal. It doesn't matter why the person was trying to come to the U.S. If they did not come through legal channels then they should expect nothing less than to be detained and returned to their country of origin. All countries have immigration laws. America did not just make them up in order to piss off the Mexicans. Mexico even has immigration laws.
This law being enacted by the state of AZ should be a cry for help from that state to the Federal government. Obviously business as usual has not being getting the job done there. The past administration decided to build a joke of a fence. This will not solve the problem either.
The federal government needs to step up to the plate on this one.
What makes this law racist is
What makes this law racist is that it targets one race of people only. Someone with a frenchie moustache wearing a beret, smoking a french cigarette out of a long effeminent looking cigarette holder, is not going to be asked to show his papers.
Conversely, many multi generational native Americans with brown skin are going to be questioned because they are of Mexican decent. Think of it this way. What if NYS was having problems with Africans illegally crossing the border through Canada. Would black people in NYS get angry when cops started asking for their papers?
You won't find any Bush
You won't find any Bush bashing here Bud. GWB had it mostly right when he started his push for immigration reform and none of his ideas involved rounding up brown people and asking for their papers. I only wish that Bush had focused on immigration earlier in his presidency; he may have been able to secure himself a real legacy.
frenchie moustache wearing a
frenchie moustache wearing a beret, smoking a french cigarette out of a long effeminent looking cigarette holder
Casting note from a 70s B movie?
George- I would think that a
George- I would think that a Texan would be in favor of controlling our borders. Perhaps because you don't live in Laredo or El Paso, you may not be as concerned about the murders that happen daily from Mexican drug gangs.
I am not racist, rather I am an American who loves his country. I am all for LEGAL immigration, as that is the foundation our nation is built upon.
I can tell you, I know 2nd and 3rd generation Mexicans in Phoenix who still can't(won't) speak English. The legal immigrants of the 19th and 20th century would never dream of asking America to assimilate to them. No more. Slowly but surely, the US is turning into North Mexico.
>>"The legal immigrants of
>>"The legal immigrants of the 19th and 20th century would never dream of asking America to assimilate to them."
The immigrants of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries didn't do a very good job of assimilating with the natives, either.
This law allows for
This law allows for questioning of immigration status. Just like when anyone else in this country is pulled over we are all asked to show a license and registration (show us your papers).
The problem we have in this country is we subsidize our poor to not work. This entitlement mentality also has some blame in drawing illegals to our shores. I for one welcome all peoples to this country, just come legally.
If the federal government
If the federal government can't (or more likely - won't) enforce our borders to keep the illegals out, then I guess the states are going to have to do something whether they (or we) like it or not. The expense involved in having all these illegals within their state boundaries is overwhelming to say nothing of the danger to the honest immigrants and citizens.
Bud, I never insinuated the
Bud, I never insinuated the people in favor of this law are racist. I'm just saying the law is racist.The drug gangs are a totally different story and that's not what this law is about. They have plenty of laws for that already. There are lots of Mexicans in Austin without a green card. It's don't ask, don't tell and they work hard and often get cheated or robbed. There is more crime perpetrated on them than they commit in the community and it's almost always white people providing the employment opportunities that draw them here in the first place. I expect law enforcement in Arizona to ignore the law unless someone breaks some other law that applies to everyone, and not just Mexicans.
I wouldn't say the people who
I wouldn't say the people who supported the law are racist. Nor would I say the law is racist.
My concern is that the implementation will eventually lead to racist conduct.
The law does open the door to racial profiling (both overtly and inadvertently), and the untended consequences of that could be less than desirable.
You can always say there is a good intention behind a law -- just like our politicians say with Leandra's Law -- but unless you try to account for the full impact of the legislation, then you're not making very good law.
Posted by Howard Owens on May
Posted by Howard Owens on May 3, 2010 - 12:48pm
"I wouldn't say the people who supported the law are racist. Nor would I say the law is racist".
I hate to say this but I think Arizona knows what they need, despite lack of federal government participation ?
(let's ask someone that lives in Arizona)
"My concern is that the implementation will eventually lead to racist conduct".
It is too late for that now. I revert to states rights being applicable in Arizona. ONLY.
"The law does open the door to racial profiling (both overtly and inadvertently), and the untended consequences of that could be less than desirable".
I agree. It has always happened and will continue without admission.
"You can always say there is a good intention behind a law -- just like our politicians say with Leandra's Law -- but unless you try to account for the full impact of the legislation, then you're not making very good law".
I agree. "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right".
Thomas Paine
Mr. Richardson- I just got
Mr. Richardson-
I just got done reading the actual text of the law.
No where in the law does it require "whitey" law man to round up the brown people.
What it does do is allow and require non-federal law enforcement agencies to cooperate with federal agencies in determining the immigration status of people that they have come into to contact with. It does not require the law enforcement agencies to randomly stop people to ask them for their papers.
I'm originally from southern California where illegal immigration is just as real a problem as it is in Arizona. I have only been in NY since 2006. So what I can say about illegal immigration is that it is a problem. It is not going to go away by giving amnesty. That is a very noble and idealistic thought. However it is not realistic.
Here is a for instance for those that think all the poor illegal immigrants are just being picked on.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125844450&ps=cprs
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
Jeremiah, how unique of you
Jeremiah, how unique of you to actually read the law before commenting on it instead of following the media talking points. The law does nothing more than give the same(already existing) powers that federal agents had to Arizona police officers. If the law opens up the opportunity for racial or ethnic profiling, then it did before and no one was complaining about it then. The feds were not getting it done and so the law gives more law enforcement officers the ability to stem the tide of illegal immigrants while specifically addressing profiling. The governor of Arizona should steal a line from the President and announce that the protesters ought to be thanking her instead of demonstrating.
That's just the type of
That's just the type of person I am Jeff. I like to make informed comments.
The odd thing is that I
The odd thing is that I always thought Arizona had some pretty stiff laws as it was.
When you drive into the state you pass through an inspection station that has mirrors that check under a vehicle.
Bea- Are you thinking of the
Bea- Are you thinking of the agriculture inspection stations going into California or the official border crossings from Mexico into Az?
I truly hope that law spreads
I truly hope that law spreads like wildfire to ALL the Continental United States. If you dont think we have an illegal Mexican problem up here too your kidding yourself (although the poor people of Arizona/Texas do have it much worse, and my heart goes out to them)
Also, keep in mind it would be easy for anyone up north to be critical of this bill since our problems with illegals are not as bad as the border states, but just try to put yourself into thier shoes. Can you imagine those filthy, lawless people invading "little ol" Batavia and bringing thier violence here. Thank God we border Canada, if they decided to start sneaking over here the worst we would get would be spontaneous hockey games breaking out in the streets :)
Posted by Jeremiah Pedro on
Posted by Jeremiah Pedro on May 3, 2010 - 4:37pm
Bea- Are you thinking of the agriculture inspection stations going into California or the official border crossings from Mexico into Az?
I've never gone from Mexico to Arizona, so it has to be the agricultural inspection stations. The mirrors fascinated me.
Tim said "Can you imagine
Tim said "Can you imagine those filthy, lawless people invading "little ol" Batavia and bringing thier violence here."
Wow. Filthy? Pretty harsh broad brushing of an issue that has many more facets than just the lawless undesirable's that you've narrowed this down to.
Those "illegal Mexicans" up here are picking our cabbage, onions and apples. They live, for the most part, in the shadows working harder than you and I probably ever could.
Posted by Lorie Longhany on
Posted by Lorie Longhany on May 3, 2010 - 8:09pm
Tim said "Can you imagine those filthy, lawless people invading "little ol" Batavia and bringing thier violence here."
Wow. Filthy? Pretty harsh broad brushing of an issue that has many more facets than just the lawless undesirable's that you've narrowed this down to.
Those "illegal Mexicans" up here are picking our cabbage, onions and apples. They live, for the most part, in the shadows working harder than you and I probably ever could
...and don't forget that many of them are here legally, does that make them any less "filthy"?
The "filthy" remark made me
The "filthy" remark made me cringe. But from context, I'm not sure he means all Mexicans or just the ones who cross the border and cause problems (which undeniably is a problem).
If I thought for sure he meant all Mexicans, or all immigrants from South of the Border, I would have deleted the comment as inappropriate for this site.
The use is ambiguous, though.
For the record, as a native of Southern California, I have nothing but love and appreciation for Mexicans -- love the food, love the music, love the culture -- and some of the kindest, most respectful, most joyful and hardest working people I've known are Mexicans.
One of the "unexpected"
One of the "unexpected" outcomes of this new law so far is that many illegals are not taking chances and are going back to Mexico only to have their jobs filled by unemployed legal American citizens.
I'm a US citizen and have to
I'm a US citizen and have to prove it every time i come back from Canada by showing ID..why should this be any different for those in AZ...
Yes Howard, the "filthy" part
Yes Howard, the "filthy" part was absolutely refering to the illegals (the trouble making illegals) although there is no such thing as a "good" illegal alien. Example: You try to put a good face on the muck workers right? Those "poor, unfortunates, picking our cabbage, onions, and apples" If they are here legally fine, but if they are not, they are simply UNWELCOME and taking jobs from us. And anyone, ESPECIALLY in this economy that would make the statement that they are only doing jobs that no one else would do, are so wrong. When there are so many people out of work there should be NO SUCH THING as a job that you wouldnt do. If i did not have a job, i would have no problem picking cabbage, apples, and onions, i would even pick things i dont like....Like beets...yuck! :) Lets not forget that good old fashioned HARD WORKING jobs are exactly what built this country. Think about all the jobs that would be created by deporting the illegals. That 9 or 10 percent unemployment rate would plummet if suddenly there were a few million less illegals around. Don't get me wrong, i have NO problems with Mexicans at all, just look at Salma Hayak :)
I am extremely proud of the fact that the united states is a "melting pot" and ANYONE who wants a better way of life, as long as they are willing to work hard and OBEY THE LAW should be welcomed with open arms....HOWEVER, go through the proper channels!!! Do whatever it is you need to do through your country and this one to come over here the legal way. We really need to make an example here and show the world that you can not simply sneak over here. What kind of message will that be sending to our middle eastern ememies who would love to cross the border so that they could cause trouble. We simply need armed guards on the borders now, armed guards equipted with LIVE ammunition, you can figure out the rest :)
This is a problem that the USA will have to deal with very swiftly. I am sure we can all agree liberal or conservative that the mexican gov't is a corrupt one and they have been and will continue to do NOTHING about the unsecured borders and stopping thier own people from sneaking over here. The ironic part of this whole thing is that on a federal level the ONLY thing the gov't is supposed to do is protect us, and its failing miserably at that.
Howard, this may be very off topic but you have mentioned many times on here that you are a former "Californian" and you may have answered this before, and if so i appologize for asking something that everyone may already know, and if you don't mind me asking, but what exactly made you leave California for New York? I think we can safely rule out "favorable weather conditions" as a reason :)
From someone who did it the
From someone who did it the legal way.
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Tim, I would suggest reading
Tim, I would suggest reading Tom Rivers book, Farm Hands. It's a first person account of local farm work. The farm workers from south of the border are highly skilled, productive and work circles around most American workers (many who don't make it through three hours, let alone through a pay period) Farmer's need a reliable workforce that can put in the back breaking work. They don't have the time to watch workers leave at break time never to return. The Mexican and Southern cone workers provide that. Your platitudes (capitalized for emphases) make good sound bites for an issue that evokes anger and frustration, but we need fair reform that also recognizes the human aspect. There's a demand for this workforce or they wouldn't be here.
60+ years ago the farm labor truck would drive through Batavia's southside picking up the Italian immigrants -- women and children -- who labored in the fields. A good friend of mine worked the muck along side her brothers and sisters when she was as young as 7 years old. She described the competition jumping onto the back of the pick up truck to make that trip over to Elba. While this was a character builder how many of us want our children doing this today? Besides child labor laws prohibiting it now.
The local farm workforce (legal and many illegal) do contribute to our local economy. They buy groceries, order pizza, buy clothes for their children. They are my neighbors, yet I rarely see them, only walking home from the farm. Occasionally if I have to stop at the grocery store late at night I'll see a family shopping and I've wondered if they've waited until late so they can be more inconspicuous or if they just got done working a 16 hour day.
Over the weekend there was a rally in Albion. It's an interesting article about the event. http://thedailynewsonline.com/articles/2010/05/03/news/doc4bdddf6ac4419…
I can remember those trucks
I can remember those trucks coming through the southside to pick up people to work. I can, also, remember one of my cousins being picked up in Oakfield to work on the muck. My father, as a young teen, also worked on the muck. 80 years ago, my grandparents (Italian immigrants) would pack up their family and spend the summer in Lyons to work in the fields. They were today's version of migrant workers.
One of my sons worked on the muck while in high school. It is back breaking work topping onions and cabbages.
I can remember him coming home with the skin on his hands cracked and bleeding. Yet, he went back every day.
That was 27 years ago.
How many high school kids would do that today? If there was such a supply of able bodied workers ready to get to the fields, why aren't they there?
Lorie, With high unemployment
Lorie,
With high unemployment there should be no need for illegals working not just on farms, but in factories and small businesses.
If there are all these jobs nobody will do except illegals, maybe unemployment insurance and welfare payments have to be reevaluated.
We pay people who have no job to help them out, but when there are jobs going idle, how long should we continue to pay them.
Tim, The Batavian was started
Tim, The Batavian was started by a big newspaper company based in Fairport. That company hired me and moved me out here in the fall of 2006. In late 2007, I was asked to come up with a plan for an online-only news site. That plan became The Batavian, which we launched May 1, 2008. In Feb. 2009, the company decided it cold no longer afford me and consolidated my job in the person of somebody based in Chicago. But they allowed me to take over The Batavian. Billie and I decided that seemed like a good move for us.
And actually, we love the weather here. We love four season. We enjoy the winter. And actually, where we often enjoyed hot weather in California (the last place we lived, Bakersfield, is one of the hottest places in the state), we don't like it hot here at all. It starts getting into the 70s here and we just think it's damn hot.
We really do enjoy WNY. There's lots to do and see. The people are great. There's a lot of potential here.
The real question isn't why we came -- that was just a job -- the real question is why we stay, and that's because we love it here. We don't miss California at all.
John, you're eligible to draw
John, you're eligible to draw unemployment so long as you can't find a job in your line of work.
You're not expected to look for a job outside of your area of training.
So if you're an out of work accountant, and nobody is hiring accountants, you won't be asked to apply for work as a restaurant manager.
Of course, conversely, if you're a restaurant owner who needs a new manager, you wouldn't want to hire an accountant with no experience in the restaurant business.
And based on what I learned about farm work from Tim Rivers' articles, if I were a farmer who grew cabbage or had a dairy, I wouldn't want to hire the accountant either -- he or she wouldn't have the proper training or experience, and there would be a big risk of that new worker quitting after about four hours.
I've referenced before the book "The Collapse of Complex Societies" (which, disclosure, I haven't read, only read about). This strikes me as another complex society problem. We've created a system where what seems like a simple problem -- farmers need labor -- into a difficult situation where it defies easy answers. Farm work has gotten more specialized and complex, and our system of education and social safety nets make a certain class of citizens essentially unsuited for work that in simpler times anybody could or would do if necessary. And whatever solution we come up with to patch it up, will make the system even more complex, making the next new related problem that arises even more difficult to solve.
Lorie- It is heart breaking
Lorie-
It is heart breaking when families are torn apart.
The people who are arrested for violating Immigration laws have put themselves in this position. They knew the risks of coming to America Illegally. They felt that the benefits outweighed the risks though.
The hard working farm hands that are trying to earn money to provide for their families are only one facet of this problem we know as Illegal immigration. Most people would agree with you that the average American would not be willing to perform the type of work that the farm hands do on a daily basis. However, most people are not frustrated with these farm hands, who regardless of intentions are still in violation of U.S. Federal law. It would be no different than if you were printing off counterfeit money to help provide for your family. You would still be in violation of U.S. Federal law.
Most people have a problem with the Illegal immigrants who were criminals in their country of origin and have continued that life of crime in this country. They are frustrated with the Illegal immigrants that steal Identities in order to get public assistance or a drivers license or even just so they can have a social security number that will allow them to get job outside of agricultural work.
Here is a question that I don't know the answer to but I find interesting. How much of the money that the Illegal immigrants make doing jobs most American would not do, stays in the local communities and how much of the money is sent back to their country of origin? I would imagine the majority of the money is sent back to the country of origin.
OK, I just skimmed thru the
OK, I just skimmed thru the comments.....now my 2 cents.
The bottom line here, is the word "illegal." I don't think anyone has a problem with those coming here legally, like most of our ancestors did!! (I certainly DON'T).
The ILLEGALS are taxing our systems: schools, health, and welfare and legal!! Wake up! Our local detention center, ICE, is full! The people in there ARE criminals, not just illegals. Why even have Border Patrol if anyone is allowed in the USA? Let's just take down the border checks totally, if it is ok to come as you wish.
I am sick of the bleeding heart liberal mentality. Our kids or grandkids are going to pay the penalty more than we are now, the USA is going down the drain, and other countries are laughing at us.
Get a social security number, and pay taxes like the rest of us!!
I don't have a problem with
I don't have a problem with foreign workers coming here to do "work that Americans won't do", I have a problem allowing illegals. Lorie, you wrote above about people living in the shadows and shopping late at night, the Daily News article tells of families torn apart and uprooted, those are the problems created when we allow illegal immigrants to get a false sense of security. That's not the America I support, I think everyone should have equal access to Life,Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. The American Dream is supposed to be work hard, live within your means, stay out trouble with the Law and feel secure. Yeah, that's pretty hard for anyone these days, but at least I don't have to worry about pissing off the boss or anyone else and having him turn me in, if I get a speeding ticket or get in an accident, it may cost me some money, but my family and i won't get sent back to Denmark or wherever. I'll agree the immigration laws need to be simplified, but until they do, we are not doing anyone any favors by letting this situation go on. Except for employers who want cheap labor and like having something to hold over those employees.
So, secure the borders, create a path for those already here to become "legal" within a set time frame, send the criminals home and don't let it happen anymore. As an aside 3 of my grandparents were immigrants, one was basically "illegal" although granted, things were different then (1913). Also, 2 of my wife's grandparents were also immigrants.
Howard, I understand the
Howard,
I understand the unemployment policy. My point is that after a year of being paid unemployment, and still no work in your field, should you be required to look for any work, or be allowed to continue to draw payments?
What if you were laid off from basically an unskilled job to start with? Or you are not willing to move to an area of the country that is looking for your job skill?
People support illegals working saying nobody will do the work they do. But we pay people unemployment/welfare for years because they can not find a job. I support unemployment payments, but only for so long. Maybe we have to look at this.
There's a lot of drawing a
There's a lot of drawing a distinction between between "legal" and "illegal."
But that distinction is merely a piece of paper. It's an easy fix: Make it easier for everyone who wants to come here for a job to do so easily and legally.
Problem solved.
John, I agree with you, but
John, I agree with you, but it's way more complicated than that. How would it work? Would unemployment mandate laid off electricians,carpenters, plumbers, teachers, bankers, and all the unemployed to take assignments at local farms? Would there be exemptions so people could opt out for health reasons? It would certainly show some character, but lets be realistic. The other key to the demand for workers from Mexico and South America is the skill sets they bring. They are very very productive. The struggles that the farmers already endure would be compounded by an unproductive, untrained workforce.
When my husband was in the Marine Corp, we had something to come home for one fall and we couldn't really afford the trip. So after we arrived here, we went to a local orchard and picked apples to earn the dollars to pay for our trip. My husband picked apples and worked at the stand at McPhearson's orchard when he was in high school, so he was a lot better than I was. It was hard work.
John, just because an
John, just because an employer has an opening and a long-time unemployed person walks in, doesn't mean that person is getting the job. The job candidate still needs to be qualified for the job and convince the hiring manager that he or she will stick around for some time.
It cost time and money to hire people, no matter what the job. The smart manager will let a position go vacant before hiring the wrong person.
All this talk of "people are out of work, they should take any job that they can get" totally ignores the fact it takes two to tango.
It is just simply exponentially harder to get a job you have no experience, training or previous demonstrated inclination for.
I'm not saying there are not slackers and people who take advantage of the system, but it's simply not enough to say "they should take whatever job they can get" because you can't force businesses to hire people they don't want.
A few weeks ago, at a town
A few weeks ago, at a town hall meeting, someone suggested that farmers hire agents to set up their recruiting stations in Mexico and other countries. The gist of the suggestion was that the people would be hired there, run through an investigation, then issued their green cards before they entered the U.S.
Which sounded good until the person also insisted that each worker must have a command of the our language, both written and oral and a few other regulations that would reject almost 80% of those looking for work.
Lorie, The excuse we get for
Lorie,
The excuse we get for illegals working here is that nobody else will do the jobs.
We don't have to mandate anyone take a farm or other job illegals do, but maybe after one year of unemployment payments, they should stop getting them. I think one (1) year is enough when there are jobs.
And for people with medical problems, there are other programs other than unemployment (SSI is one).
Unemployment insurance was meant to help people short time, between jobs due to no fault of their own. It also was set up when there are no jobs available. The program is a good one and works.
But we told here there are jobs, so many jobs we need illegals to do them.
How do you justify paying somebody over a year unemployment/welfare when there are jobs that need illegals?
A few thoughts: Contrasting
A few thoughts:
Contrasting illegal Mexican entry with European immigration- which wave of Europeans are being used as an example? Is a new myth being fabricated- American colonists welcomed by Native American customs officials. Nineteenth Century waves of European immigrants were no-less resented by existing residents. City slums and railroad-building for them, compared to the barrios and field toil reserved for Hispanics.
Filthy? What context excuses a categorical slur on the hygienic fitness of a class of people? Filthy is not interchangeable with lawless or troublesome. The word means unclean in any context. At the very least, the word was chosen to be provocative.
The federal government has jurisdiction over federal borders. Arizona has an obligation to maintain peace within its borders. The question remains whether Arizona's new immigration law is intended to administer local peace or affect federal immigration policy?
Probable cause is required to detain or hold for investigation. The Fourteenth Amendment prevents race from being construed with cause.
As stated, Hispanic laborers(legal or otherwise)would not be here if the work wasn't waiting for them. Arguing that unemployed citizens should have priority when work is given to an illegal is unrealistic. Jobs are given to those who apply for them- not persons who SHOULD apply for them. There used to be an office of the state labor department in Elba. The office didn't go away because the jobs dried up. The office went away because no one was applying.
Politics can't farm. Farmers have it hard enough without "well-intentioned" opinion-holders separating their crops from the labor force that tends their fields.
I think just about anyone
I think just about anyone would do whatever is required to feed their family. That's why most of the folks in question are here in the first place.
I've said before on this very site that the fix to illegal Mexican immigration needs to start in Mexico. In my humble opinion, we would be better served spending money south of the border assisting the Mexican government with their effort to stem the tide of systemic corruption and drug violence.
If there were jobs for these folks in Mexico, if they could trust their law enforcement and if they didn't live in fear of stray bullets, an illegal jaunt across the border to find work may not be so enticing.
The reason I think Arizona's new law is so stupid (other than the racial profiling)is that it doesn't actually solve any problems. Arizona's government is going to spend a pile of money on arresting, detaining, processing and deporting illegal aliens. After they ship the folks back to Mexico and points beyond, those same people are going to come right back for the same reasons that brought them here in the first place.
Whether you want them here or not, these folks are going to keep coming across the border because the risk outweighs the benefit. I'd do the same damn thing to feed my family if I found it necessary. We've got it good here and I suppose it's easy to forget that sometimes.
I'll close here by saying this: What do we call it when people who see a demand fill it? What principle leads us to believe that there is such a thing as acceptable risk and those willing to take that risk will likely see a reward? This is the free market at work folks and illegal workers in this country seem to have a pretty good grasp of the principle.
Chris its already working the
Chris its already working the illegals are leaving Arizona and going to other states. Texas will more than likely develop similar legislation. The US is not responsible for Mexico's problems and should not be spending our money to police their problems.
Rich, we're already spending
Rich, we're already spending money to fix Mexico's problems. What do you think this is all about? If Mexico wasn't in shambles these folks wouldn't need to come here in the first place.
Everyone acts like these
Everyone acts like these people have rights if you are not an american citizen you have no rights. I applaud Arizona for taking care of this on theire own. Enforce the existing laws secure the boarder and screw Mexico. It is not our job to police the world. Arizona is now the last place illegals want to go. Suprised texans don't have a hunting season yet.
I agree that it's not our job
I agree that it's not our job to police the world. However, when the failures of another government directly affect our ability to enforce our own laws and provide for our own people I think we should probably do something. My problem with Arizona's law is that it will inevitably prove ineffective as well as unconstitutional.
There are better ways to do this.
By the way, any person living
By the way, any person living within our borders has rights. The Constitution makes no mention of citizenship when detailing the basic rights of the people here.
Chris, what motivation does
Chris, what motivation does Mexico have to stop people from leaving their country and coming to the U.S.?
Last year, immigrants (both legal and illegal) sent $17 billion back to Mexico (<a href="http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/immigrants-send-money-home.html">so…;
That is a substantial portion of Mexico's GNP. If the money stopped, so would Mexico's economy, or it would have to turn more to the drug trade than it already does.
As for the Constitution -- the Bill of Rights was founded on the principle of Natural Rights: All people have inalienable rights. It's not about citizenship. It's about humanship. To truly believe in the Constitution is to believe that all people, regardless of race, creed, skin color, religion, country of origin or country of residence have the same basic, fundamental rights. To deny one person his or her rights is to deny us all those same rights.
"We hold these truths to be
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
While that is the Declaration of Independence, it is the heart and soul of the Bill of Rights.
None, Howard. Your remarks
None, Howard.
Your remarks about the spirit of the Constitution are absolutely correct, though you'd find a disturbing amount of people who would disagree.
By the way, if Arizona or any
By the way, if Arizona or any other state really wanted to stem the tide of illegal workers, all they would have to do is assess punitive fines and prison terms on the companies and people that hire them. Of course no state would be willing to do that, first because we all know that the labor is valuable, second because that valuable labor is off the books (good for the companies,) third because those companies donate money to the folks who write the laws.
In the words of the venerable George Carlin: 'It's all bullshit and it's bad for ya.'
Just got back from an errand
Just got back from an errand to Williamsville, I was listening to a show on NPR about this subject. The reporter said that most of the migrant workers or opportunists that come here to work for a while and send money home aren't coming to the US in nearly as many numbers as past years, due to the economy. He opined that the ones here now are intending to stay.
Makes sense to me. Now then would be the time to step up border security, run off the trouble-makers and leaches & create a path for the "good people" to become citizens. Of course, the jerks who are supposed to represent us in Washington won't do that because this is an election year and polls probably show that Americans hate Wall Street fatcats more than they do illegal aliens, so that's what they'll concentrate on. Vote them all out!!!!!
Any person that sneaks thier
Any person that sneaks thier way over here without going through the proper channels is breaking the law regardless of WHY they are coming over here. If you or I were to break the law in anyway we would be punished, they are not. Plus you bleeding hearts want so bad to put a good face on this by pointing out the migrant workers that you are totally ignoring the cold blooded murderers and drug runners that are running rampant and who are actually starting to out number the supposed "good ones" that you actually want us to feel sorry for. There are people dying in arizona by the hands of these animals sneaking over the borders and the federal gov't is doing nothing to protect its people. (which again is the ONLY job the federal gov't was ever intended to do)
Here is what we do....
1. Our gov't contacts the CORRUPT mexican gov't and tells them to do something about the illegals sneaking over cause starting now we are going to start shooting.
2.Round up every last law breaking illegal that has sneaked over here and ship them back to mexico.
3.At the same time all 50 states have a national guard right? How long do they have to serve, like 3 or 4 weeks a year or something like that right? So take the guardsmen from states 1-10 for a month take them to the shooting range, let them practice up, then take them to our borders and tell them, if anyone crosses this line shoot them. Next month those guardsmen go home then the guard from states 11-20 get called to the border and you continuously rotate them.
It is estimated that 11 million illegals live in the country (give or take). If we say adios muchachos to all them our unemployment would absolutely PLUMMET, our economy would strengthen greatly, our people would be ALOT safer, and it would send a strong message that this country is not the joke that many other countries think we are.
And the part that makes this a great country is that all of those who would have been deported are welcome to APPLY to come back. If they have no criminal records, i say let them in, let them work, let them LEARN OUR LANGUAGE, live and let live but do it the RIGHT way.
Lorie: That book suggestion is interesting...But is farm work really that "skilled" that you or I could not learn it relativily quickly if we had to? Now let me make 2 things really clear, i have never done farm work, but from what i have seen it looks to be about the hardest work a person could do, and with the exception of the american soldier, i think the american farmer is about the most Red, White, and Blue job anyone could have. I hold farmers in the highest regard. With that being said, the american worker is the hardest worker in the world. (well at least we used to be, when i see the up and coming generation i get kind of scared, but at least this last generation (around Bea's age group) really helped to shape this country) anyhoo, my point is...As long as your not afraid of an honest HARD days work, couldnt anyone be trained to do it? If so, think of what that could mean to our unemployment if we were to get rid of the illegals and take over the jobs ourselves.
Tim, you understand that
Tim, you understand that we're the ones who have incentivized these people to come here in the first place right?
Are you willing to take your strong law enforcement stand all the way to the companies who hire these workers? Are you aware that many of these companies actually foot the bill for the illegal border crossings? Are you willing to open fire on Purdue Farms and other well known, enormous corporations who hire these folks?
I'm just shocked that folks actually believe that anyone in this country is really serious about meaningful immigration reform and law enforcement.
If we boot out all the illegal workers, American companies would have to hire Americans and American workers want things like minimum wage, health benefits, unemployment insurance, worker's comp, paid vacations, paid holidays, fair pay for overtime, the opportunity to unionize etc... Obviously, the American companies who hire illegals have no interest whatsoever in providing these things or they wouldn't be employing an illegal workforce in the first place.
This whole thing is so tongue in cheek it makes me want to puke. There are real solutions for this but no one has tried them yet. Get your quote pens ready because I'm going to say something I never thought I would: George W. Bush was well on the way to getting this right. If you want to pass meaningful immigration reform, give him a call and he'll tell you all about amnesty and how to go about it. Get these people work visas, get them on the tax rolls, and fast track them to citizenship so they can bring their families here as well. Make the companies that continue to hire illegals just to save a buck pay $2500 per day per worker in fines and jail company owners who continue to break the law. We'll end up paying ten bucks a head for lettuce, but the job will be done and the middle class in America will have grown.
Meanwhile Tim, I like your idea about opening fire on the drug traffickers.
Tim, you wrote: "3.At the
Tim, you wrote: "3.At the same time all 50 states have a national guard right? How long do they have to serve, like 3 or 4 weeks a year or something like that right?"
Obviously, you haven't been paying much attention. The National Guards have been serving repeated deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan for years now. It's part of why states are going broke but noone talks about that. They are tired out, and have had their equipment decimated by overseas wars. Border Guards are also being sent to Iraq & Afghanistan to train them how to secure their borders. (Hope they do a better job) We'll have to hire illegal alien riflemen.
Posted by Tim Howe on May 4,
Posted by Tim Howe on May 4, 2010 - 5:06pm
i have never done farm work, but...
Why not walk a mile in their shoes. If you haven't done farm work then you have no basis for your belief that it is unskilled and easy to learn.
Dave, Just for the record,
Dave,
Just for the record, the federal government pays for the National Guard when on active duty, here or overseas. The Feds also pay for the weekend drills and annual training.
Ok Chris although i
Ok Chris although i absolutely stand behind my opinion of what the solution should be, i will say that yeah i left out one very wrong doer here, The companies that employee these people. You make a perfect point, and you are absolutely right about it. But that plan you speak of is assuming that these people WANT to become citizens, and not just want to funnel our money across the border, at least with my way we are forcing them outta here, and to go that extra mile (literally) to truly become a legal citizen because we are starting with a clean slate. I am so uncomfortable with the whole "lets give ammnisty to the ones that are already here" thought process. It just sends a very weak message.
We are a sovereign nation with real laws and rules about protecting ourselves and we need to stop bending the rules and start to stand strong and enforce those laws.
Questions come to mind about this plan. How does this plan seperate the drug trafficers, murders, ect from the ones who actually want to work? Because they would get to stay here as well right? Plus wouldnt that company that is being threatened by daily fines actually save money (compared to paying those fines) by hiring an american worker with fair wages, ect ect? Plus no one says that the farmer has to pay a top wage or give benefits, cause like you said a head of lettuce would be 10 bucks...LOL
Evil walmart found a way to not pay medical insurance, they make sure there employees dont get overtime, cant the farmer get away with this too? I know that sounds kind of sleazy to say, (which is why i refered to them as EVIL walmart) but the point is cant he hire REAL AMERICAN workers and keep his costs down like any other company now days and still turn a profit without 10 dollar heads of lettuce? :)
In the late 60's I cut
In the late 60's I cut cabbage for a a farmer near South Byron that my Aunt knew. My cousin knew I needed a part time job and he was going to do it too. I think they paid us $5 a row and the rows were about 150 yards long. It was the hardest work I ever did in my life and my back killed me, I think I made about $20 a day. None of the high school kids could cut more than one row at a time and the harvest was going real slow until the migrant workers arrived. They all had custom knives and cut two and sometimes three rows at a time. They flew by us and it wasn't long before I was working on the cabbage loading wagon. That was really hard too, but nothing compared to being stooped over all day long. When you finally stand up, you're not standing very straight. I was thrilled once the harvest was over and I was unemployed again. Did I mention it was freezing cold and rainy. The mud was horrible. My kids would laugh at me if I tried to get them to do that work for a single hour.
Dave, i know our brave
Dave, i know our brave guardsmen have been going oversees to Afghanistan and Iraq, but haven't they been recruiting new guardsmen to actually stay behind and guard the nation? If not then thats just really scary.
Bea my liberal friend, i very clearly in my last post said what DIFFICULT work it seemed to be, and the amount of respect i had for the AMERICAN FARMER never did i say it seemed easy, my point was that people probally could learn it though, if they were smart (i can tell an onion from a carrot) :) and if they were the HARD WORKING type of people.
Can't be that hard to work on
Can't be that hard to work on the farm ..after all back in the 50's kids would pile into to trucks headed for the muck to work..I did it back when i was in high school...Most of these illegals are taking construction jobs and driving the labor rates down..These people are breaking the law and that is the bottom line the rest is all irrelevent..Credit to AZ for taking charge of their state..The message is loud and clear if you are here illegal you get sent back..They should take away all the illegal money they made in the USA and send them back..
Chris- Have you actually
Chris- Have you actually read the law? Go ahead and read it and then give me an example of how it is unconstitutional.
The law does solve a problem. The problem being the border patrol is too small or spread to thin to effectively enforce federal laws in AZ so the state of AZ wrote this law that allows local law enforcement, after having come in contact with someone lawfully to ask their immigration status. Like I said in a previous comment in this thread. No where in this law does it require "whitey" law man to arrest all Mexicans just so they can ask them if they are here legally or not. The law merely provides local law with the ability to assist federal law enforcement in doing their jobs.
Posted by Tim Howe on May 4,
Posted by Tim Howe on May 4, 2010 - 6:30pm
i had for the AMERICAN FARMER never did i say it seemed easy, my point was that people probally could learn it though, if they were smart (i can tell an onion from a carrot) :) and if they were the HARD WORKING type of people.
Only AMERICAN FARMERS? What about those, from other countries who work with a green card. No respect for them?
Yes, you can tell a carrot from an onion, but could you work, stooped over for 8 hours a day quickly topping those onions with an instrument that resembles a machete?
Yes, it can be learned, but in the meantime, entire fields of onions or cabbages could rot while 'smart' people learn the technique and acquire the dexterity needed.
Chris said, By the way, if
Chris said,
By the way, if Arizona or any other state really wanted to stem the tide of illegal workers, all they would have to do is assess punitive fines and prison terms on the companies and people that hire them. Of course no state would be willing to do that, first because we all know that the labor is valuable, second because that valuable labor is off the books (good for the companies,) third because those companies donate money to the folks who write the laws.
In the words of the venerable George Carlin: 'It's all bullshit and it's bad for ya.'
Chris, you and Carlin are right but, they don't throw rich people in jail in this country for breaking the law. The busineses that give these people reason to break the law are the problem. They are the dealers.
It's much easier to blame the "huddled masses" for trying to make a better life for themselves. It's also much easier to trash immigrants, besides they look and talk different than us.