Its the farm workers job to get a good deal. Due to the nature of the job, getting overtime is going to be very difficult. There is no reason we need another law in this state to mandate a company how to use its workers.
Yes, I believe the State and Federal Gevernment should be inceasingly involved in private business as much as possible. We in the private sector are totally clueless as to how to best run our affairs.
Just wait til July or August when thanks to Big Brother's intervention even more workers are going to be laid off and/or small businesses will be going under.
every person makes their own deal upon employment-1 can qiut and 1 can be fired,let go
I believe most farmers pay by the day because theirs alot of setup time and in between actualy work times that are considered.
"Some day you get the bear-Some days the bear gets you"
it all equals out in the end.
Thanks Doug,
I don't know what made me think the migrants came up here under contract to an agent. They put in their hours, the farmer pays the contractor and they pay the migrants.
So each migrant that comes up north has to negotiate thier own salary; time off; housing; etc. Thanks for clearing that up.
As President of New York Farm Bureau please allow me to elaborate on the Farmworker Bills that are currently moving through the NYS Legislature. These changes to the Ag labor laws are nothing more than an organized movement by the NYC labor bosses and the self appointed farm worker advocates. They are trying to change the current laws because they feel that we farmers mistreat our workers and that they are treated as second class citizens. NY Farm Bureau has calculated that the cost of these proposed law changes to be about $200 million dollars a year. This equates to a new tax on small business at time when the industry is in an economic tail spin.
Did you know that Farmworkers are currently eligible for or receive Unemployment Insurance Benefits, Workers Compensation Inusrance, Free Day Care, Free Health Care and many receive free housing and transportation. All workers recieve at least the current NYS minimum wage and most make considerably more upwards of $15.00 per hour depending on the crop and piece rate.Does that sound like poverty wages? How many of you receive free health care and day care?
Due to the short time period that farms have to plant and harvest crops there are times when employees will work over 40 hours a week, sometimes at least 60. There are also periods of the season because of mother nature that the same employee may only work 20 to 30 hours. These workers are here to work and most do not want a day off. They are here to make as much money in a short period of time so that they can then return to their families at home.
The legislation if passed will require overtime pay after 40 hours, allow for collective bargining, remove the quarterly payroll exemption for Unemployment insurance and require disability insurance.
Currently the housing that many farms provide is better that some apartments here in Batavia. Did you know that before a farmworker is allowed to take up residence in farmworker housing the dwelling must pass 3 different inspections. The County health department, NYS Department of Labor and the US Public Health agency all inspect the dwellings. Does your home go through as much scrutiny?
Also if these workers were being so mistreated why do they return to many farms year after year? If the conditions are so bad why would they not just leave.
One of the supporters of this movement is Kerry Kennedy the daughter of Robert Kennedy. She has made statements publicly that some farmworkers are required to work 20 hours a day for 30 straights day with out a day off. Do you truly believe that to be true? How long would you do that job before you left? Why is the teachers union involved?
If the Farmworker bills are passed NY Agriculture will be changed forever and the prices that you pay for your fruits, dairy products and vegetables will increase.
In the end the very citizens that the proponents of the legislation are trying to help will be hurt. They will either make less due to having there hours cut or they could be out of a job altogether as farms move away from labor intensive crops or simply just close.
While I don't think that farmer's should be paid overtime, I'd really like to see when a farmer works 20-30 hours per week.
My father is a 19 year farmer and his minimum hours are 7am-6pm M-Sat rain or shine. That is 66 hours per week. Many times he does not take a lunch either. In the summer hours are usually extended from about 6:15-9:00 Mon-Sat. If it's REALLY bad in the winter he might get home at 5 but that's a push.
We live in employer provided housing but the dwelling in which we live would not pass an inspection. There is mold growing in the walls and the water isn't suitable for even an animal to drink with other electric problems and such that exist. Obviously he isn't going to complain because then he might get let go (On other grounds of course) and employment is hard enough to find in this economy.
Not all farm workers are migrants headed back down south.
I have worked on farms when i was young.I know it is hard work.Exhausting.It takes a very special person to be a farmer.Our country needs to take care of their farmers.They feed us all.
Do farmers from the USA get child care and insurance?In my opinion we need migrant workers also.What do the migrant workers think about it.I haven't noticed them complaining.
I can not believe that the government would do anything to hurt the farmers.They supply one of our basic human needs.I think all farmers must have it in their blood.I don't think they're getting rich.They end up losing money to feed us.Why punish them?I have the most respect for all farm workers.Could the USA fill all the jobs of migrant workers?
Farmers need help too in these tough times.I wouldn't be for something that hurts farmers.I feel bad for farmers.It's a never ending job.
On May 12th a number of self-appointed advocate organizations, most being non-profit religious organizations, led by an organization called Rural and Migrant Ministry (RMM), held a rally/lobbying event in Albany demanding the passage of legislation that would end a handful of labor law exemptions that apply to agricultural employees in New York State.
These organizations, especially RMM act as "self-appointed advocates" on behalf of farmworkers. Genuine farmworkers have not elected nor chosen these organizations or their leaders to represent them or speak in their behalf. For the most part real farmworkers do not attend these organizations' meetings nor help plan their lobbying events. This fact was admitted by Rev. Richard Witt, Executive Director of RMM, in sworn testimony before the NYS Lobby Commission in October 2001. Witt admitted that though any farmworker who wants to be on RMM's planning committee could be on it, on average only two or three actually serve on the committee. The investigator for the Lobby Commission remarked, "does that sound strange to you? ... In the advocacy advocating for these people, any one of them, as you testified, can serve on the committee, and the most you got is three?" When actual farmworkers do participate, like the recently held rally, they're usually paid to be there. In his testimony Rev. Witt admitted that the few farmworkers that were bussed into Albany in the past were paid $40 at the end of their lobbying event for their participation.
These organizations typically distort the facts and spread misinformation regarding the laws associated with the living and working conditions of farmworkers in NYS. For example, a Poughkeepsie Journal article that publicized the May 12th lobbying event stated in part that:
“Before you take the first bite of your dinner tonight, pause for a moment and think about how it got to your table. Its journey started with a farm worker - a man, a woman or, in some cases, a child - who picked that tomato off the vine before it went into your pasta sauce or loaded those apples onto a truck before they were cooked in that pie…. Few folks work harder than farm workers, and few are rewarded less for their labors…. Most of our work places are subject to federal health and safety standards. Most places where farm workers toil are not.” http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009905120…
It's journey started with the farmer, not the farmworker. Farmers greatly value the men and women that work for them but farmers start the season before they arrive and work after they leave. Farmers typically start the day before them and in most cases work after they finish work. Virtually every job farmworkers do on the farm farmers have done in the past and in some cases continue to do. Plus farmers assume all of the financial risk. Farmworkers help farmers but to say or imply that they are more responsible than the farmer for putting food on our tables is absurd.
The Robert F. Kennedy Center for Justice & Human Rights website states the following:
“In New York State, laws protecting workers categorically exclude farmworkers from basic rights and protections. As a result, workers often work 14 hour days, seven days a week, at minimum wage, with no health insurance, workers comp, or paid sick leave. They can be fired if they try to form a union, they live in substandard housing, and they have a shocking lack of access to basic sanitation. Children who work in the fields all day can be paid as little as $3.90 an hour.” http://www.rfkcenter.org/nyfarmworkers
The claim that farmworkers in NYS are not protected by labor laws and have little to no government oversight is patently false. The fact is that there are roughly a dozen or more federal, state and local governmental agencies overseeing a plethora of laws that regulate the living and working conditions of farmworkers in NYS, including the U.S. Department of Labor, a number of different divisions of the New York State Department of Labor (including Rural Employment Services, Labor Standards and a Monitor Advocate), the state and local county Health Departments, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, OSHA, the EPA, and the NYS Worker’s Compensation Board, amongst others. These laws include the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act (MSPA) which is specific federal legislation that only applies to farmworkers The NYS Department of Labor produces a little green book (in English and in Spanish) entitled "Protection for Farm Workers." The book states, "Farmworkers: You should know that there are federal and state laws related to employment that provide important protection for you." The book then details laws covering housing, pay, transportation, working conditions and how to make complaints about employers to the NYSDOL.
And despite what the RFK Center asserts, farmworkers in NYS whose employer paid $1,200 or more for farm labor in the preceding calendar year (WCL §3 Group 14-b) are covered by workers comp. This means the overwhelming majority of farmworkers in NYS are covered. Regarding unemployment insurance, farmers must provide unemployment insurance if they have a payroll of $20,000 or more in any calendar quarter, if the farmer employed 10 or more persons on at least one day in each of the 20 different weeks during a calendar year or the preceding calendar year, or if they are liable under the Federal Unemployment Tax Act. Fruit and vegetable farms tend to employ large amounts of people for a short amount of time. The threshold, originally established at the federal level, exists largely because of the seasonal and transitory nature of our labor force. Migrant farmworkers who follow the harvest season are going to employment in other states, and will not stay in New York collecting unemployment insurance. Some larger operations, including those that pack onions year round, do meet the threshold and do provide unemployment compensation, which is appropriate. But, with the elimination of the $20,000 threshold exemption, does the government want to encourage persons that would normally travel to another region and work to instead stay put, not work when normally they would, and collect unemployment insurance? That is not sound public policy.
Farm work is not comparable to making "widgets" in a factory. A factory can more easily structure their work schedule according to the supply of materials and demand for their product, and adjust the work schedule accordingly so as to minimize more easily the increased costs associated with overtime pay. In agriculture the work frequently happens in brief periods of time (planting and harvesting), which is heavily dependent on the weather and the season or time of year, two things a farmer cannot control.
What a farmer can do is cut back the hours during non-peak periods so as to be able to afford the overtime pay during the peak periods which can't be avoided. And here is where the self-appointed advocates do not take into account potential unintended consequences of what they are lobbying for. If the overtime exemption ends and farmers significantly cut back hours during the non-peak periods between planting and harvesting to compensate for the increased labor costs that can't be minimized during the peak periods, then this reduction in hours may lead to a real reduction in wages for farmworkers. So, in terms of pay earned eliminating the overtime exemption may (and probably will) lead to less overall pay earned in a season. This also might lead to less workers traveling to NYS, which will only exacerbate an already acute labor shortage.
In the end, everyone loses, the workers actually have less take home pay and the farmers have less workers available. Farms may eventually go out of business, costing the farmworkers their jobs. But the self-appointed advocates, who have pushed for this, walk away paying no consequences for their actions.
Regarding farmworkers and their wages and benefits, the facts are that in NYS farmworkers earn, on average, over $10.00 an hour (http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/FarmLabo/FarmLabo-05-22-20…). Most farmworkers in NYS also receive free housing and all that entails, including heat, electric & utilities. Many receive free cable or satellite tv service. In fact, one source points out:
"Farmworkers in the US are offered a range of services - supported by federal, state and local government, as well as by non-profits, community organizations, churches and individuals…. Other services that cater to migrant farmworkers include: pesticide training, day care, legal services, immigration counseling, English classes, substance abuse programs, WIC, Medicaid, job training, job placement, housing, domestic violence counseling, women's groups, high school equivalency programs, soccer leagues, recreation, arts programs and emergency services." http://www.whyhunger.org/news-and-alerts/47-why-speaks/508-serving-farm…
Farmworkers in New York benefit from a number of governmentally funded social service programs that, in many cases, only exist for their benefit, including their own FREE government funded health clinics, day care centers for their children (now 14 throughout the state), federally funded migrant education programs, as well as their own government funded law firm which works only in their behalf. How many urban residents working at the same wage tier receive free housing and free day care for their children and all of the other benefits mentioned that farmworkers in NYS receive?
The self-appointed advocates mantra is that simply because these exemptions exist they are unjust. One of their documents actually states: “We treat farmworkers, people who are also hard working men and women, who also contribute to our economy, pay taxes and raise wonderful children, as second-class citizens. We depend on them for our well being, and when they ask to be treated fairly – we say, NO. This is immoral and unjust. There can be no justification for this unequal treatment. Attempts at justification of this exclusion are offensive” (http://justiceforfarmworkers.org/documents/RMM_Memo_in_Support.pdf).
This line of reasoning is deeply troubling and disturbing. To the advocates there is no valid counter-argument. It's a matter of morality, and they get to decide what is and isn’t moral. Who assigned these organizations with the authority and responsibility to be the final arbiter of which exemptions to our civil and/or criminal codes are "just?" Further, the fact is that many of the very same exemptions that they are dictating should be ended for agriculture they also benefit from regarding their employees. And of course there are numerous exemptions in other laws, including in the tax code, where these institutions also benefit from while the rest of us, including farm employers, don’t. Aren’t those “exclusions” to the laws unjust as well? The blatant hypocrisy of these religious and quasi-religious organizations, that want to impose rules and laws on other industries they don't often want applied to themselves and who benefit from a number of labor law and tax "exclusions" is fully detailed in the excellent 5 part series "In God's Name" by Diana B. Henriques that ran in October of 2006 in the New York Times. The pieces include “IN GOD’S NAME: As Exemptions Grow, Religion Outweighs Regulation” (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/business/08religious.html?pagewanted=…) and ”IN GOD’S NAME: Where Faith Abides, Employees Have Few Rights” (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/09/business/09religious.html?fta=y&pagew…)
Farmers would love to pay their workers even more. But, when we in this country spend less than 11% of our disposable income on food and farmers typically receive less than 20% of that retail dollar, farmers are doing all they can regarding their employees. This is the contextual reality that the self-appointed advocates never deal with. Good public policy is crafted within the framework of the contextual realities we dwell in, not in a vacuum. Farmers urge people to learn the facts regarding farming and farm employees. And then learn what the intended and unintended consequences of the passage of advocate driven legislation will be on farmers and farmworkers alike.
Check out this brief snippet of a documentary that aired in 1996 and check out what actually happened by clicking on the more info section found to the right under my YouTube user name.
This person and organization routinely disseminates this sort of misleading and disturbing misinformation. Bottom line, take what this individual and organization states regarding the living and working conditions of farmworkers in NYS and the laws associated with them with dumptruck loads of salt.
Peter, shouldn't a libertarian be more sympathetic to "illegal aliens," since laws that prevent people from seeking gainful employment, even if a cross-border situation, are just one more government intrusion into the right of a person to benefit from the fruits of his labor? What would Ayn Rand say?
Even conservatives should understand that rights are a natural state and know no borders. People have a right to freely seek employment where employment is available. Basic Burkean conservativism.
But also, haven't you been the one exhorting people to read Rand?
I believe every country should adopt the principles in our constitution however I don't believe everyone has a right to live here because they want to. They need to follow the correct procedures to do that. Otherwise we become very vulnerable to disease, attack, political meltdown, and destruction of American lifestyle.
Posted by Peter O'Brien on June 4, 2009 - 9:29am
To read Atlas shrugged specifically
I believe every country should adopt the principles in our constitution however I don't believe everyone has a right to live here because they want to. They need to follow the correct procedures to do that. Otherwise we become very vulnerable to disease, attack, political meltdown, and destruction of American lifestyle.
So who do you believe is qualified to enter our country as new citizens? Which groups of people would lead to the distruction of our American lifestyle. Wouldn't anyone who petitions for citizenship, and follows the legal path required, be welcomed with open arms?
Our "lifestyle" was forged by the unique melting pot made up by people from many lands. That is the American Lifestyle.
So do we want the farm labors rates low for the sake of the farmers ,which allows the laborers to be able to qualifies for many government social programs..child care ,health care and food stamps and such... So who's pocket do we put more money in , Farmers or the Laborers.I say the laborers..
Why does the local corner store pay his labor over time after 40 hrs..Isn't he or she trying to stay afloat also...
I'm interested to know if the US, allowing the migrants to cross the border to work on upstate NY's farms is costing us more, or saving money. They get foodstamps, childcare, healthcare, special school programs, clothing, housing, ect, when most of us have to work our A**es off to pay for these things. That said, I think the migrant workers are getting enough for their hard work, and the farmers shouldn't have to pay them anymore money, and neither should the taxpayer.
Arent their enough locals, that need jobs right now too?? Granted the migrants work VERY HARD. They are out in the fields 10 hours a day, but I wonder how much more it is costing us to furnish all these perks to them. Do the local farmers contribute to these programs, or are we fitting the bill? Are our children being pushed aside, in school, to furnish the migrants with special education? Are our teachers being spread to thin?
There has to be a happy medium here.
Food for thought
ps: my first job, when I was young
was picking cabbage
on the muck, then strawberrys, so I
appreciate hard work, and know what its like.
Andrew do you mean what corner store pays over time after 40 hrs ,they all do,Or do you mean are trying to stay afloat..If they don't want to pay over time they hire more workers so that ever one stays under the 40 hrs..What happen to the deli on Jackson St..or the one on Oak street..They are both closed ..
I mean, they make a conscious effort to not have any employee getting more than 40 hours a week. The fact that either deli you mentioned has closed is not surprising to me, especially the one on Oak Street. Not the wisest of decisions to open there in the first place, in my opinion.
I asked a question of this nature once before to Howard and he doubted he could get the information from the local merchants. I would genuinely be curious to know how many of the smaller businesses in the city or town do pay a similar wage or higher than the larger chains and this question (overtime) would also be interesting to know. I am doubtful that it's very many. Also, of those employees that are, how many aren't relatives?
I worked for a small mom-and-pop store when I was in high school (and part of college). I was actually paid less than if I was to work for Wegmans. The bigger chains can afford to give yearly raises, scholarships, etc. The store I worked for could barely give the managers and full-time people benefits.
It's really not relevant if the smaller, independent stores pay more or less than the chains, because the smaller stores are largely family run and operated. And the impacts go far beyond any particular individual.
What the chains do that is highly relevant is inhibit the ability for more families to own and operate their own businesses, which robs a community of its wealth and keeps more people in low paying jobs. The number and diversity of independently owned businesses has dropped over the last twenty years, which is bad for local communities and bad for democracy and bad for the American Dream.
And the big box stores, as opposed to Wegmans, which occupies an interesting world of a large regional, family-owned business, tend to employ more people in part-time jobs, have higher turn over and Wal-Mart has actually held seminars teaching people how to apply for government aid.
Studies have shown that the more diverse and local the business base, the more people living ABOVE the poverty line, the fewer people getting government aid, the better the health care in the community and the greater participation in local elections.
The less diversity of local ownership, the fewer contributions to charities and the fewer the community events and civic engagement and the higher the crime rate.
Did anyone see the News Special "Earth 2100" on ABC on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 at 9pm ?
Visit abcnews.go.com/Technology/Earth2100 for more information.
Man what an EYE-OPENER....
Posted by Peter O'Brien on June 4, 2009 - 11:57am
Lets see who would ruin the country...
An influx of communists...oh wait sorry were doing that on our own
Who is a card carrying Communist that is holding national office?
An influx of people willing to work for pennies and sending it away...oh wait thats happening too
I notice you didn't say illegals. So, those who come here to harvest the crops on your table are an influx of people. Are you willing to do that job?
An influx of islamofacists....see Great Britain
We aren't Great Britain. Is Parliment overrun with islamofacists?
Those in poverty setting up shanty towns such as in Africa would also ruin America due to our increasing social programs.
Look at the previous administration for the economic situation we find ourselves in. The belief that those in poverty are there because they chose to be was a great conservative mantra.
I welcome anyone who wants to come here legally and has a valuable skill as well.
What skills do you consider valuable. In this day and age, I would welcome ANYONE who can clerk at a store and make correct change without having a machine do it for them.
I say crossing the border illegally should be punishable by death.
Well, in the next few months we would have bodies stacked like cordwood as people get used to crossing our border with Canada with the proper documentation. Shoot them all!
"I say crossing the border illegally should be punishable by death.
Well, in the next few months we would have bodies stacked like cordwood as people get used to crossing our border with Canada with the proper documentation. Shoot them all!"
Yeah, that's a comparable analogy. Here's what will happen trying to cross the border into Canada without the proper documentation at a legal crossing point. You'll be turned back. Last I knew thousands of people weren't flocking across the Canadian Border illegally for any reason. I believe if you don't have a job awaiting you with special dispensation why it wasn't made available to a Canadian Citizen first, you aren't going to be welcomed into Canada as a resident in the first place.
Bea,
I'm not going to argue all your points because its useless.
But! if you think Bush is responsible for the collapse of the housing market which led to the drying up of credit which affected almost every aspect of this country think again.
There are quite a few "illegal" immigrants that do not cross the Mexican border. Many come from places like Ireland, Eastern Europe, and Russia. However, many of these people flock to big cities instead of farm country.
I worked in the fields side by side with migrant workers harvesting Cabbage. For ten ten minutes anyway, after that they were 15 feet ahead and a half hour later I couldn't see them. Ha ha, you can take the boy away from the farm but the farm never goes away from the man. Chickens, frogs, rabbits, hay, grain, cows, silos, barns and fields full of migrating geese. My gosh.
Tom Rivers, who did that great series on working in the fields, has a mountain of similar stories. He's speaking in Elba tonight. I'll be there. I'm looking forward to it. He's a damn good journalist.
Its the farm workers job to
Its the farm workers job to get a good deal. Due to the nature of the job, getting overtime is going to be very difficult. There is no reason we need another law in this state to mandate a company how to use its workers.
Yes, I believe the State and
Yes, I believe the State and Federal Gevernment should be inceasingly involved in private business as much as possible. We in the private sector are totally clueless as to how to best run our affairs.
Just wait til July or August when thanks to Big Brother's intervention even more workers are going to be laid off and/or small businesses will be going under.
every person makes their own
every person makes their own deal upon employment-1 can qiut and 1 can be fired,let go
I believe most farmers pay by the day because theirs alot of setup time and in between actualy work times that are considered.
"Some day you get the bear-Some days the bear gets you"
it all equals out in the end.
Thanks Doug, I don't know
Thanks Doug,
I don't know what made me think the migrants came up here under contract to an agent. They put in their hours, the farmer pays the contractor and they pay the migrants.
So each migrant that comes up north has to negotiate thier own salary; time off; housing; etc. Thanks for clearing that up.
If this happens, most farmers
If this happens, most farmers that I know would be forced to quit farming. They are all scraping by as it is now.
As President of New York Farm
As President of New York Farm Bureau please allow me to elaborate on the Farmworker Bills that are currently moving through the NYS Legislature. These changes to the Ag labor laws are nothing more than an organized movement by the NYC labor bosses and the self appointed farm worker advocates. They are trying to change the current laws because they feel that we farmers mistreat our workers and that they are treated as second class citizens. NY Farm Bureau has calculated that the cost of these proposed law changes to be about $200 million dollars a year. This equates to a new tax on small business at time when the industry is in an economic tail spin.
Did you know that Farmworkers are currently eligible for or receive Unemployment Insurance Benefits, Workers Compensation Inusrance, Free Day Care, Free Health Care and many receive free housing and transportation. All workers recieve at least the current NYS minimum wage and most make considerably more upwards of $15.00 per hour depending on the crop and piece rate.Does that sound like poverty wages? How many of you receive free health care and day care?
Due to the short time period that farms have to plant and harvest crops there are times when employees will work over 40 hours a week, sometimes at least 60. There are also periods of the season because of mother nature that the same employee may only work 20 to 30 hours. These workers are here to work and most do not want a day off. They are here to make as much money in a short period of time so that they can then return to their families at home.
The legislation if passed will require overtime pay after 40 hours, allow for collective bargining, remove the quarterly payroll exemption for Unemployment insurance and require disability insurance.
Currently the housing that many farms provide is better that some apartments here in Batavia. Did you know that before a farmworker is allowed to take up residence in farmworker housing the dwelling must pass 3 different inspections. The County health department, NYS Department of Labor and the US Public Health agency all inspect the dwellings. Does your home go through as much scrutiny?
Also if these workers were being so mistreated why do they return to many farms year after year? If the conditions are so bad why would they not just leave.
One of the supporters of this movement is Kerry Kennedy the daughter of Robert Kennedy. She has made statements publicly that some farmworkers are required to work 20 hours a day for 30 straights day with out a day off. Do you truly believe that to be true? How long would you do that job before you left? Why is the teachers union involved?
If the Farmworker bills are passed NY Agriculture will be changed forever and the prices that you pay for your fruits, dairy products and vegetables will increase.
In the end the very citizens that the proponents of the legislation are trying to help will be hurt. They will either make less due to having there hours cut or they could be out of a job altogether as farms move away from labor intensive crops or simply just close.
While I don't think that
While I don't think that farmer's should be paid overtime, I'd really like to see when a farmer works 20-30 hours per week.
My father is a 19 year farmer and his minimum hours are 7am-6pm M-Sat rain or shine. That is 66 hours per week. Many times he does not take a lunch either. In the summer hours are usually extended from about 6:15-9:00 Mon-Sat. If it's REALLY bad in the winter he might get home at 5 but that's a push.
We live in employer provided housing but the dwelling in which we live would not pass an inspection. There is mold growing in the walls and the water isn't suitable for even an animal to drink with other electric problems and such that exist. Obviously he isn't going to complain because then he might get let go (On other grounds of course) and employment is hard enough to find in this economy.
Not all farm workers are migrants headed back down south.
I have worked on farms when i
I have worked on farms when i was young.I know it is hard work.Exhausting.It takes a very special person to be a farmer.Our country needs to take care of their farmers.They feed us all.
Do farmers from the USA get child care and insurance?In my opinion we need migrant workers also.What do the migrant workers think about it.I haven't noticed them complaining.
I can not believe that the government would do anything to hurt the farmers.They supply one of our basic human needs.I think all farmers must have it in their blood.I don't think they're getting rich.They end up losing money to feed us.Why punish them?I have the most respect for all farm workers.Could the USA fill all the jobs of migrant workers?
Farmers need help too in these tough times.I wouldn't be for something that hurts farmers.I feel bad for farmers.It's a never ending job.
On May 12th a number of
On May 12th a number of self-appointed advocate organizations, most being non-profit religious organizations, led by an organization called Rural and Migrant Ministry (RMM), held a rally/lobbying event in Albany demanding the passage of legislation that would end a handful of labor law exemptions that apply to agricultural employees in New York State.
These organizations, especially RMM act as "self-appointed advocates" on behalf of farmworkers. Genuine farmworkers have not elected nor chosen these organizations or their leaders to represent them or speak in their behalf. For the most part real farmworkers do not attend these organizations' meetings nor help plan their lobbying events. This fact was admitted by Rev. Richard Witt, Executive Director of RMM, in sworn testimony before the NYS Lobby Commission in October 2001. Witt admitted that though any farmworker who wants to be on RMM's planning committee could be on it, on average only two or three actually serve on the committee. The investigator for the Lobby Commission remarked, "does that sound strange to you? ... In the advocacy advocating for these people, any one of them, as you testified, can serve on the committee, and the most you got is three?" When actual farmworkers do participate, like the recently held rally, they're usually paid to be there. In his testimony Rev. Witt admitted that the few farmworkers that were bussed into Albany in the past were paid $40 at the end of their lobbying event for their participation.
These organizations typically distort the facts and spread misinformation regarding the laws associated with the living and working conditions of farmworkers in NYS. For example, a Poughkeepsie Journal article that publicized the May 12th lobbying event stated in part that:
“Before you take the first bite of your dinner tonight, pause for a moment and think about how it got to your table. Its journey started with a farm worker - a man, a woman or, in some cases, a child - who picked that tomato off the vine before it went into your pasta sauce or loaded those apples onto a truck before they were cooked in that pie…. Few folks work harder than farm workers, and few are rewarded less for their labors…. Most of our work places are subject to federal health and safety standards. Most places where farm workers toil are not.” http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009905120…
It's journey started with the farmer, not the farmworker. Farmers greatly value the men and women that work for them but farmers start the season before they arrive and work after they leave. Farmers typically start the day before them and in most cases work after they finish work. Virtually every job farmworkers do on the farm farmers have done in the past and in some cases continue to do. Plus farmers assume all of the financial risk. Farmworkers help farmers but to say or imply that they are more responsible than the farmer for putting food on our tables is absurd.
The Robert F. Kennedy Center for Justice & Human Rights website states the following:
“In New York State, laws protecting workers categorically exclude farmworkers from basic rights and protections. As a result, workers often work 14 hour days, seven days a week, at minimum wage, with no health insurance, workers comp, or paid sick leave. They can be fired if they try to form a union, they live in substandard housing, and they have a shocking lack of access to basic sanitation. Children who work in the fields all day can be paid as little as $3.90 an hour.” http://www.rfkcenter.org/nyfarmworkers
The claim that farmworkers in NYS are not protected by labor laws and have little to no government oversight is patently false. The fact is that there are roughly a dozen or more federal, state and local governmental agencies overseeing a plethora of laws that regulate the living and working conditions of farmworkers in NYS, including the U.S. Department of Labor, a number of different divisions of the New York State Department of Labor (including Rural Employment Services, Labor Standards and a Monitor Advocate), the state and local county Health Departments, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, OSHA, the EPA, and the NYS Worker’s Compensation Board, amongst others. These laws include the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act (MSPA) which is specific federal legislation that only applies to farmworkers The NYS Department of Labor produces a little green book (in English and in Spanish) entitled "Protection for Farm Workers." The book states, "Farmworkers: You should know that there are federal and state laws related to employment that provide important protection for you." The book then details laws covering housing, pay, transportation, working conditions and how to make complaints about employers to the NYSDOL.
And despite what the RFK Center asserts, farmworkers in NYS whose employer paid $1,200 or more for farm labor in the preceding calendar year (WCL §3 Group 14-b) are covered by workers comp. This means the overwhelming majority of farmworkers in NYS are covered. Regarding unemployment insurance, farmers must provide unemployment insurance if they have a payroll of $20,000 or more in any calendar quarter, if the farmer employed 10 or more persons on at least one day in each of the 20 different weeks during a calendar year or the preceding calendar year, or if they are liable under the Federal Unemployment Tax Act. Fruit and vegetable farms tend to employ large amounts of people for a short amount of time. The threshold, originally established at the federal level, exists largely because of the seasonal and transitory nature of our labor force. Migrant farmworkers who follow the harvest season are going to employment in other states, and will not stay in New York collecting unemployment insurance. Some larger operations, including those that pack onions year round, do meet the threshold and do provide unemployment compensation, which is appropriate. But, with the elimination of the $20,000 threshold exemption, does the government want to encourage persons that would normally travel to another region and work to instead stay put, not work when normally they would, and collect unemployment insurance? That is not sound public policy.
Farm work is not comparable to making "widgets" in a factory. A factory can more easily structure their work schedule according to the supply of materials and demand for their product, and adjust the work schedule accordingly so as to minimize more easily the increased costs associated with overtime pay. In agriculture the work frequently happens in brief periods of time (planting and harvesting), which is heavily dependent on the weather and the season or time of year, two things a farmer cannot control.
What a farmer can do is cut back the hours during non-peak periods so as to be able to afford the overtime pay during the peak periods which can't be avoided. And here is where the self-appointed advocates do not take into account potential unintended consequences of what they are lobbying for. If the overtime exemption ends and farmers significantly cut back hours during the non-peak periods between planting and harvesting to compensate for the increased labor costs that can't be minimized during the peak periods, then this reduction in hours may lead to a real reduction in wages for farmworkers. So, in terms of pay earned eliminating the overtime exemption may (and probably will) lead to less overall pay earned in a season. This also might lead to less workers traveling to NYS, which will only exacerbate an already acute labor shortage.
In the end, everyone loses, the workers actually have less take home pay and the farmers have less workers available. Farms may eventually go out of business, costing the farmworkers their jobs. But the self-appointed advocates, who have pushed for this, walk away paying no consequences for their actions.
Regarding farmworkers and their wages and benefits, the facts are that in NYS farmworkers earn, on average, over $10.00 an hour (http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/FarmLabo/FarmLabo-05-22-20…). Most farmworkers in NYS also receive free housing and all that entails, including heat, electric & utilities. Many receive free cable or satellite tv service. In fact, one source points out:
"Farmworkers in the US are offered a range of services - supported by federal, state and local government, as well as by non-profits, community organizations, churches and individuals…. Other services that cater to migrant farmworkers include: pesticide training, day care, legal services, immigration counseling, English classes, substance abuse programs, WIC, Medicaid, job training, job placement, housing, domestic violence counseling, women's groups, high school equivalency programs, soccer leagues, recreation, arts programs and emergency services." http://www.whyhunger.org/news-and-alerts/47-why-speaks/508-serving-farm…
Farmworkers in New York benefit from a number of governmentally funded social service programs that, in many cases, only exist for their benefit, including their own FREE government funded health clinics, day care centers for their children (now 14 throughout the state), federally funded migrant education programs, as well as their own government funded law firm which works only in their behalf. How many urban residents working at the same wage tier receive free housing and free day care for their children and all of the other benefits mentioned that farmworkers in NYS receive?
The self-appointed advocates mantra is that simply because these exemptions exist they are unjust. One of their documents actually states: “We treat farmworkers, people who are also hard working men and women, who also contribute to our economy, pay taxes and raise wonderful children, as second-class citizens. We depend on them for our well being, and when they ask to be treated fairly – we say, NO. This is immoral and unjust. There can be no justification for this unequal treatment. Attempts at justification of this exclusion are offensive” (http://justiceforfarmworkers.org/documents/RMM_Memo_in_Support.pdf).
This line of reasoning is deeply troubling and disturbing. To the advocates there is no valid counter-argument. It's a matter of morality, and they get to decide what is and isn’t moral. Who assigned these organizations with the authority and responsibility to be the final arbiter of which exemptions to our civil and/or criminal codes are "just?" Further, the fact is that many of the very same exemptions that they are dictating should be ended for agriculture they also benefit from regarding their employees. And of course there are numerous exemptions in other laws, including in the tax code, where these institutions also benefit from while the rest of us, including farm employers, don’t. Aren’t those “exclusions” to the laws unjust as well? The blatant hypocrisy of these religious and quasi-religious organizations, that want to impose rules and laws on other industries they don't often want applied to themselves and who benefit from a number of labor law and tax "exclusions" is fully detailed in the excellent 5 part series "In God's Name" by Diana B. Henriques that ran in October of 2006 in the New York Times. The pieces include “IN GOD’S NAME: As Exemptions Grow, Religion Outweighs Regulation” (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/business/08religious.html?pagewanted=…) and ”IN GOD’S NAME: Where Faith Abides, Employees Have Few Rights” (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/09/business/09religious.html?fta=y&pagew…)
Farmers would love to pay their workers even more. But, when we in this country spend less than 11% of our disposable income on food and farmers typically receive less than 20% of that retail dollar, farmers are doing all they can regarding their employees. This is the contextual reality that the self-appointed advocates never deal with. Good public policy is crafted within the framework of the contextual realities we dwell in, not in a vacuum. Farmers urge people to learn the facts regarding farming and farm employees. And then learn what the intended and unintended consequences of the passage of advocate driven legislation will be on farmers and farmworkers alike.
Check out this brief snippet
Check out this brief snippet of a documentary that aired in 1996 and check out what actually happened by clicking on the more info section found to the right under my YouTube user name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMWTHBkUuHk
This person and organization routinely disseminates this sort of misleading and disturbing misinformation. Bottom line, take what this individual and organization states regarding the living and working conditions of farmworkers in NYS and the laws associated with them with dumptruck loads of salt.
Feel free to forward/pass along.
If by migrant worker you mean
If by migrant worker you mean ILLEGAL ALIEN then screw 'em.
Peter, shouldn't a
Peter, shouldn't a libertarian be more sympathetic to "illegal aliens," since laws that prevent people from seeking gainful employment, even if a cross-border situation, are just one more government intrusion into the right of a person to benefit from the fruits of his labor? What would Ayn Rand say?
My reference to 'migrant'
My reference to 'migrant' workers was for those, who legally cross the border to work in our fields. Not every migrant worker is an illegal.
I lean more conservative then
I lean more conservative then libertarian. I believe in the rule of law and that our borders should be protected.
Bea I know that but most are illegal and need to removed.
Even conservatives should
Even conservatives should understand that rights are a natural state and know no borders. People have a right to freely seek employment where employment is available. Basic Burkean conservativism.
But also, haven't you been the one exhorting people to read Rand?
To read Atlas shrugged
To read Atlas shrugged specifically
I believe every country should adopt the principles in our constitution however I don't believe everyone has a right to live here because they want to. They need to follow the correct procedures to do that. Otherwise we become very vulnerable to disease, attack, political meltdown, and destruction of American lifestyle.
Posted by Peter O'Brien on
Posted by Peter O'Brien on June 4, 2009 - 9:29am
To read Atlas shrugged specifically
I believe every country should adopt the principles in our constitution however I don't believe everyone has a right to live here because they want to. They need to follow the correct procedures to do that. Otherwise we become very vulnerable to disease, attack, political meltdown, and destruction of American lifestyle.
So who do you believe is qualified to enter our country as new citizens? Which groups of people would lead to the distruction of our American lifestyle. Wouldn't anyone who petitions for citizenship, and follows the legal path required, be welcomed with open arms?
Our "lifestyle" was forged by the unique melting pot made up by people from many lands. That is the American Lifestyle.
So do we want the farm labors
So do we want the farm labors rates low for the sake of the farmers ,which allows the laborers to be able to qualifies for many government social programs..child care ,health care and food stamps and such... So who's pocket do we put more money in , Farmers or the Laborers.I say the laborers..
Why does the local corner store pay his labor over time after 40 hrs..Isn't he or she trying to stay afloat also...
Bea - the people qualified to
Bea - the people qualified to enter our country and become citizens are any of the ones that do so LEGALLY.
Mark - what corner store would that be? I defy you to name one.
I'm interested to know if the
I'm interested to know if the US, allowing the migrants to cross the border to work on upstate NY's farms is costing us more, or saving money. They get foodstamps, childcare, healthcare, special school programs, clothing, housing, ect, when most of us have to work our A**es off to pay for these things. That said, I think the migrant workers are getting enough for their hard work, and the farmers shouldn't have to pay them anymore money, and neither should the taxpayer.
Arent their enough locals, that need jobs right now too?? Granted the migrants work VERY HARD. They are out in the fields 10 hours a day, but I wonder how much more it is costing us to furnish all these perks to them. Do the local farmers contribute to these programs, or are we fitting the bill? Are our children being pushed aside, in school, to furnish the migrants with special education? Are our teachers being spread to thin?
There has to be a happy medium here.
Food for thought
ps: my first job, when I was young
was picking cabbage
on the muck, then strawberrys, so I
appreciate hard work, and know what its like.
Andrew do you mean what
Andrew do you mean what corner store pays over time after 40 hrs ,they all do,Or do you mean are trying to stay afloat..If they don't want to pay over time they hire more workers so that ever one stays under the 40 hrs..What happen to the deli on Jackson St..or the one on Oak street..They are both closed ..
I mean, they make a conscious
I mean, they make a conscious effort to not have any employee getting more than 40 hours a week. The fact that either deli you mentioned has closed is not surprising to me, especially the one on Oak Street. Not the wisest of decisions to open there in the first place, in my opinion.
I defy you to name one.I
I defy you to name one.I named two..............And maybe trying not to pay ot they have to hire a extra person thats a good thing....
I asked a question of this
I asked a question of this nature once before to Howard and he doubted he could get the information from the local merchants. I would genuinely be curious to know how many of the smaller businesses in the city or town do pay a similar wage or higher than the larger chains and this question (overtime) would also be interesting to know. I am doubtful that it's very many. Also, of those employees that are, how many aren't relatives?
I worked for a small
I worked for a small mom-and-pop store when I was in high school (and part of college). I was actually paid less than if I was to work for Wegmans. The bigger chains can afford to give yearly raises, scholarships, etc. The store I worked for could barely give the managers and full-time people benefits.
Lets see who would ruin the
Lets see who would ruin the country...
An influx of communists...oh wait sorry were doing that on our own
An influx of people willing to work for pennies and sending it away...oh wait thats happening too
An influx of islamofacists....see Great Britain
Those in poverty setting up shanty towns such as in Africa would also ruin America due to our increasing social programs.
I welcome anyone who wants to come here legally and has a valuable skill as well.
I say crossing the border illegally should be punishable by death
It's really not relevant if
It's really not relevant if the smaller, independent stores pay more or less than the chains, because the smaller stores are largely family run and operated. And the impacts go far beyond any particular individual.
What the chains do that is highly relevant is inhibit the ability for more families to own and operate their own businesses, which robs a community of its wealth and keeps more people in low paying jobs. The number and diversity of independently owned businesses has dropped over the last twenty years, which is bad for local communities and bad for democracy and bad for the American Dream.
And the big box stores, as opposed to Wegmans, which occupies an interesting world of a large regional, family-owned business, tend to employ more people in part-time jobs, have higher turn over and Wal-Mart has actually held seminars teaching people how to apply for government aid.
Studies have shown that the more diverse and local the business base, the more people living ABOVE the poverty line, the fewer people getting government aid, the better the health care in the community and the greater participation in local elections.
The less diversity of local ownership, the fewer contributions to charities and the fewer the community events and civic engagement and the higher the crime rate.
Did anyone see the News
Did anyone see the News Special "Earth 2100" on ABC on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 at 9pm ?
Visit abcnews.go.com/Technology/Earth2100 for more information.
Man what an EYE-OPENER....
Posted by Peter O'Brien on
Posted by Peter O'Brien on June 4, 2009 - 11:57am
Lets see who would ruin the country...
An influx of communists...oh wait sorry were doing that on our own
Who is a card carrying Communist that is holding national office?
An influx of people willing to work for pennies and sending it away...oh wait thats happening too
I notice you didn't say illegals. So, those who come here to harvest the crops on your table are an influx of people. Are you willing to do that job?
An influx of islamofacists....see Great Britain
We aren't Great Britain. Is Parliment overrun with islamofacists?
Those in poverty setting up shanty towns such as in Africa would also ruin America due to our increasing social programs.
Look at the previous administration for the economic situation we find ourselves in. The belief that those in poverty are there because they chose to be was a great conservative mantra.
I welcome anyone who wants to come here legally and has a valuable skill as well.
What skills do you consider valuable. In this day and age, I would welcome ANYONE who can clerk at a store and make correct change without having a machine do it for them.
I say crossing the border illegally should be punishable by death.
Well, in the next few months we would have bodies stacked like cordwood as people get used to crossing our border with Canada with the proper documentation. Shoot them all!
"It's really not relevant if
"It's really not relevant if the smaller, independent stores pay more or less than the chains..."
Really? I'll bet it is if you're the employee.
"I say crossing the border
"I say crossing the border illegally should be punishable by death.
Well, in the next few months we would have bodies stacked like cordwood as people get used to crossing our border with Canada with the proper documentation. Shoot them all!"
Yeah, that's a comparable analogy. Here's what will happen trying to cross the border into Canada without the proper documentation at a legal crossing point. You'll be turned back. Last I knew thousands of people weren't flocking across the Canadian Border illegally for any reason. I believe if you don't have a job awaiting you with special dispensation why it wasn't made available to a Canadian Citizen first, you aren't going to be welcomed into Canada as a resident in the first place.
Bea, I'm not going to argue
Bea,
I'm not going to argue all your points because its useless.
But! if you think Bush is responsible for the collapse of the housing market which led to the drying up of credit which affected almost every aspect of this country think again.
Bush's tax cuts led this nation to the best ever national economy.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg2001.cfm
The housing market crash was caused by the social programs of the left making banks give out risky loans to people who couldn't pay them back and the Bush administration warned against the collapse of Fanny Mae.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/09/bush-called-for-reform-of-fan…
Oh and a valuable skill is
Oh and a valuable skill is one someone is willing to pay you for that cannot be done by someone here that is unemployed.
There are quite a few
There are quite a few "illegal" immigrants that do not cross the Mexican border. Many come from places like Ireland, Eastern Europe, and Russia. However, many of these people flock to big cities instead of farm country.
Just another thought...
They still cross a border...
They still cross a border...
I worked in the fields side
I worked in the fields side by side with migrant workers harvesting Cabbage. For ten ten minutes anyway, after that they were 15 feet ahead and a half hour later I couldn't see them. Ha ha, you can take the boy away from the farm but the farm never goes away from the man. Chickens, frogs, rabbits, hay, grain, cows, silos, barns and fields full of migrating geese. My gosh.
Tom Rivers, who did that
Tom Rivers, who did that great series on working in the fields, has a mountain of similar stories. He's speaking in Elba tonight. I'll be there. I'm looking forward to it. He's a damn good journalist.