Today's Poll: Should teacher evaluations be tougher?

The best way to evaluate teachers would be the open market. Stop government control of the schools and let students and parents decide what they want to learn and who they'd like to have teach them. Example: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324635904578639780253571520

Putting yourself out there and getting hired as a private tutor is a mechanism that already exists in this country. Not that it solves our problem, rich kids aren't the ones with the higher dropout and lower success rates...

Unless you're referring to Kim's solutions to the public school system:

"To create such trust, Mr. Kim suggests paying public-school teachers significantly more money according to their performance."

How many here are going to jump on increasing teacher salaries and the tax burden to do so?

"Principals could make their results far more transparent, as hagwons do, and demand more rigorous work from students and parents at home in exchange."

Who in this country is going to take a good hard look at their own performance and make the necessary changes, rather than saying 'my kids teacher is bad'. Here's a hint, the ones that are willing are already doing it.

"And teacher-training programs could become far more selective and serious, as they are in every high-performing education system in the world"

Hey I'm all for it, but guess who sets the certification standards, the State does. Then again, you reduce the pool and those salaries are going to go up since you've just skyrocketed demand. See point 1.

Here's the kicker though:

"Children need to know how to think critically in math, reading and science; they must be driven; and they must learn how to adapt, since they will be doing it all their lives."

I would argue that the current public school system teaches you to Critically think in Math, Reading, and Science. I would not argue that the majority of students in this country are driven.

We homeschool. My children's teacher is wonderful, pretty, and smart. She cares more about being a great teacher than any professional educator. She doesn't do it for money.

The one thing that will improve our schools is competition and parental choice. Teacher evaluation programs just miss the while point and effectively fix nothing.

I wouldn't suggest a copying of South Korea's system, the author states that we could learn from it. To me it shows that an entrepreneur who wants to work hard and provide a product that people see has value will sell it, thereby benefiting both buyer and seller. Trying to provide a service (educating children) through mandatory participation of taxpayers, managing curriculum from afar, attempting to make one size fit all, protect jobs through union contracts and then wanting to control the performance makes for a very untenable situation. I think far too much emphasis is placed on the certification standards and the encouragement of more and more education of teachers. I believe this is promoted by what I call "the academic elite" who have driven the cost of college ridiculously high and keep it that way by demanding further and further standards for teachers. I think that by unraveling the morass and bottomless money pit that public education has become and letting parents and students decide what they want to learn and who they want to teach them would cause them to buy in, so to speak. I've always favored the idea of older, even retired folks doing the teaching, which can help students learn about real world actual applications to the subject as opposed to a lot of theory and inane, clumsy non-applicable tests. Free markets work, competition makes everything better and accessible. Just my opinion, I'm sure those who benefit from the curent system will disagree.

I don't see my post debating anything regarding whether an entrepreneur can work hard and sell their skills. In fact I'm debating you can do that now, without any changes to the 'system' at all, and there are many people that do take advantage of that.

The perplexing part is what the author is getting at as far as 'what can we learn' are all of those items that Kim is talking about. Utilizing the Free Market to attract better teachers with better salaries. Forcing more buy in from students and parents.

Your argument for 'less certification due to the academic elites' completely runs counter to the more rigorous standards he's suggesting we learn from.

I'm just saying that the entrepreneur's hard work is one thing I learned from it. Had nothing to do with you. The Korean entrepreneur was talking about the higher and more rigorous standards for public school teachers in the context of how can the government eliminate the need for these private tutrs, and the extra expense for parents. The article gave examples of how the S. Korean gov't has tried to shut them down. I'm taking the position that by eliminating the cumbersome public school system we have and going to the free market, we would be eliminating even more expense and get a better education for our children.

I wasn't sure if you were actually positing that eliminating the entire public school system in favor of paid for tutors would be an improvement.

So to play devils advocate here, what exactly do you intend for parents who can't afford these Free Market tutors do to educate their children?

I would certainly argue that moving completely to a Free Market system for educators, where the cost is based on what the market can bear, where the best teachers are available to whoever can pony up the cash, would almost certainly lead to even lower education outcomes for the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder.

In fact, I think you can just directly point to Victorian England and prove this has already occurred at least once in Human History.

Great book by Andrew Colson called Market Education. If you can find a copy, it is an airtight case for empowering parents through responsibilty and choice. You are right that it has been tried and it succeeds everytime. There is a lot of educational history in the book going back 4000 years. It should be required reading for folks looking for better outcomes from our system.

"eliminating the entire public school system in favor of paid for tutors would be an improvement," surely.
However, I wouldn't want to put restrictions on education. Private schools, home schooling, churches, community schools would also need to be part of the picture. But not government intrusion. Yes, those families with more funds would have better access to better educational choices. That's how it is now, in our current system. Here in Genesee County, we have pretty good public schools its not really that big of a problem, other than getting the cost under control. People living in Rochester or Buffalo do not, and the less affluent have very little choice, the more money the more choices. So, let's just drop the charade and quit feeding the public school bureaucracy, is what I'm ultimately getting at. I believe in people. I believe that benefactors will support schools or tutors for children who don't have the means. I believe there will still be teachers who will teach in some less than ideal areas, as there are now. I have a personal friend who has taught elementary school in inner-city Philadelphia all her career (she is in her 50's now) she has had offers to move out, she has seniority to teach at Philadelphia schools in better neighborhoods, but she hasn't because she feels that she is adding something to a section of the city that has little else going for it. She is doing for children what noone else is. Maybe the effect is felt by 1 or 2 each year, but she thinks its worth it. Those people will still be around if the public school system is dissolved. Churches and community groups will feel led or responsible for operating schools, and believe it or not people of means will fund them. The biggest problem I see is that we are paying out so much, with very little say about how our money is spent on schools. Some people think that since the government makes the rules, that they should be educating their children. I agree with you in your first comment, when you wrote that the folks who want to be involved in their child's education already are. They will continue to and some who aren't will begin to. I want the know it all, clumsy ineffective, inefficient government to get the heck out of the way, in education as well as quite a few other places.
I believe in people, not institutions.
As for Victorian England, I'm quite sure we have evolved as a society since then

Before testing whether current teacher evaluations need to be tougher, one must have a grasp on the nature of current evaluations. One must also recognize that current evaluation procedures vary from district to district and building to building. I highly doubt that anyone answering this vague question has that kind of comprehensive knowledge. I surmise that most responses are based on individual cases of publicized deficiency that are in all likelihood exceptional rather than representative of the entire state's education system. One must also be aware of political rationale and agenda driving the push for standardized evaluations.

I agree that there are definitely people, and organizations that would jump in to fill in the gaps. The money is huge and of course there's waste, that's what Bureaucracy excels at.

I think the biggest difference here is I don't have that type of faith in people, I do not get the sense that this would help prepare more kids to get through or even into college. I can absolutely see education devolving into whatever 'class' you happened to have been born into.

From everything I've seen, especially when it comes to our own kids, we're just as cut-throat as ever.

Secondary education is another topic................:)

Mr. White; we will never know what people will create until we allow and enable them to do so. Mr Pribeck is putting his children on that track. The best thing we ever did for our children was to put them into a "liberty based" school, no grades, no curriculum, learn whatever you want, don't what you don't. Damn near broke me, but I'd do it again and sooner. All 3 have gone on to college, 1 has 2 masters, works for a large public university and can't wait to get away from academia. All have done well in their endeavors since. They all know that anything they want to know, can be found out by themselves and they aren't accustomed to having anything spoon fed to them.

Amen , the poll and comments speak volumes. Teachers and Administration please read and dig deep as to why you teach .

money or kids

If its the money then your time has come and gone .

If its the kids , then god bless and may good fortunes be with you.

I am sick of seeing $70,000 dollar teachers that are doing very little other than counting down the days to they collect

BEING MORE LOYAL TO YOUR UNION THAN YOUR DISTRICT DOES NOTHING FOR KIDS

UNION FREE SCHOOLS , GET PAID FOR YOUR VALUE NOT YOUR TIME IN

Being in a Union has nothing to do with it, your argument that it does has no precedent .

"let students and parents decide what they want to learn and who they'd like to have teach them. "

Only one problem with that thought, Dave:

Parents aren't as involved with their children's education as they should be.

Sure we do. We know exactly what this creates in a society, a class based system where if you're born poor you stay poor. It's not like this is some kind of magical new fangled education system that's never been done before...

It's great for you and great them that you had the means to 'go near broke' to put your kids through that type of system. The vast majority of people can't.

And guess what? You can still go on to college after being 'spoon fed', I did, and am doing quite well from it.

There's no question that is a problem, Richard. Not a new issue and totally blamable on our way of life and the dependence on government that has become insidious in our society. I found this amazing text of a speech from 25 years ago while I was looking around on the inter-webs.

"Senator Ted Kennedy's office released a paper not too long ago claiming that prior to compulsory education the state literacy rate was 98% and after it the figure never again reached above 91% where it stands in 1990. I hope that interests you."

This article is the text of a speech by John Taylor Gatto accepting the New York City Teacher of the Year Award on January 31, 1990. It is reprinted with permission of the author.

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html

I really can't encourage reading this enough. What an amazing insight.

Sure we do. We know exactly what this creates in a society, a class based system where if you're born poor you stay poor.

With all due respect, sir: that's bullshit

Voucher are a great first step towards eliminating the need for evaluations. Parents that would take advantage of such programs tend ot be more involved in their child's education. They would obviously research where the best place to send their snowflake would be.

Eventually, the bad schools would get worse and you would know which administrations, teachers, parents, and students were the ones to listen to when deciding how to proceed with any type of education reform. Just follow the vouchers.

Also, in no way do I believe it is the public's job or even in their best interest to educate the masses. Education should be reserved for those that desire it for themselves and their children. Those wanting education should pay for it, or find a way to earn it such as military service. Parents who want better for their children on the back's of others should be evaluated by an independent committee in each district to determine if they will be involved enough to guarantee their child will not waste what is offered to them.

Might sound harsh, but I want my money spent as thoughtfully as I would spend it. Not thrown into a pension fund for someone who works 9 months of the year.

So Peter, if a child has uncaring parents, you would deny that child an education
even though that child had no control over who his parents are? No thank you.

Society should not be educating "the masses", so only those wealthy enough to pay for an education should have educated kids?

Wow. Just...wow.

I guess we must need more kids in the coal mines and working the harvest.

Nothing stops them from learning as an adult.

Are you saying that you are above manual labor? If we didn't have a generation of entitled snowflakes, maybe we wouldn't need so many aliens in the fields. Maybe we could afford to keep up production on the Dakota gas and oil fields.

If you want paying manufacturing jobs, you need to have a sect of society that is looking to perform that work. As it is, kids are graduating college thinking they are going to make $100k a year.

We need a broader span of abilities and desires to fill the blue collar work needs if we are to bring manufacturing back to the US.

We are educating ourselves out of self reliance.

I am not above doing anything legal to make a living, including manual labor, serving you at the Kwik-E-Mart, or processing your payroll. You've managed to miss my point (intentionally?) completely.

Your comment noted that society should not be responsible for educating children. If kids don't get at least the basic education through high school in today's society, unless they have some special skill their entire lives will be spent saying "would you like ketchup with your fries", or doing some other menial tasks. There is nothing wrong or embarrassing about doing those tasks - many fine folks do just that - but to take away education you take away OPTIONS, and damn people into jobs they don't like or are harmful to them. OPTIONS are what matter here, and some of those options pay decently and allow folks to live more comfortable lives.

If only those who can afford to educate their kids (remember, we're discussing grade and high school here - those teachers weren't in front of a college), then only those kids will be able to live the more comfortable lives.

Our society is wealthy enough to afford at least that level of education for all.... Or are you one of those "screw you, I've got mine" folks who've taken advantage of public education and now want to strip it from others?