Good call Mr. Hawley.
Hawley votes against minimum wage hike
Submitted by Howard Owens on March 6, 2013 - 8:01am
Press release:
Assemblyman Steve Hawley (R,I,C-Batavia) recently voted against a dangerous, job-killing measure to raise the minimum wage both now and on an automatic escalator in the future. The bill seeks to raise the minimum wage to $9 per hour, the second-highest rate in the nation, and includes annual increases tied to the rate of inflation.
According to the Business Council of New York State, Inc., the measure would increase total payroll costs per-employee by roughly $4,063 annually. Hawley listed a number of glaring problems with the bill, particularly its impact on the local agricultural industry.
“This legislation is a poorly thought out plan that will force businesses to eliminate jobs and pass the increase in the cost of doing business down to the consumer,” Hawley said. “The agricultural industry will be particularly devastated by this measure, which will wreak havoc on our local economy. If we want to help low-income families, we should be investing in the Earned Income Tax Credit rather than passing job-killing laws.
"This is not the way to show the world that New York is open for business. Rather, this is another example of the disconnect between Downstate, where the plan was hatched, and Upstate, where the damage will be the most severe. Now more than ever, we should be looking into my legislation that would let the public decide if New York should be split into two separate states.”
- Howard Owens's blog
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March 6, 2013 - 2:19pm
#3
March 6, 2013 - 3:12pm
#4
I've been trying, whenever i had a couple of minutes this morning to comment on this. The subject just gets me upset and a comment turns into a rant. Hopefully, this doesn't sound too angry. Mr. Hawley instead of increasing the EITC, how about talking about getting the state away from taxing people's income and making business pay so much just for the privilege of having employees. Maybe if folks could keep more of their paychecks in the first place and business kept more of the profits they make, there would be more money in circulation and no tax credits ( or yum-yums as you once called it) to give, neither to individuals or companies. Reduce the size and scope of government, implement a higher sales tax with a prebate and watch how folks spend more because they have more to spend and local business grows and hires more and labor becomes more valuable, so wages go up organically. And then, wow new business comes along and builds without government handouts, which come from taking part of peoples' paychecks, so that they need to make more to end up with enough. Then someone like Cuomo or Silver or Obama can advocate for a minimum wage increase to vote pander. It's a stupid cycle that only bureaucrats and politicians win at. I believe Steve gets this, and one reason why I support his 2 New Yorks idea.
A little reading from Andrew Sullivan if anyone's interested
http://www.politicalinsidersreport.com/2013/02/21/the-minimum-wage-hoax/
March 6, 2013 - 4:59pm
#5
I wonder if Mr. Hawley could live on $7.45/hour, I really doubt it.Glad I never voted for him, another politician out of touch with reality.
How much more can the consumer take, prices have been steady going up since 2008, there sure as hell was no increase in min wage during that time span.
I agree with Steve from the farmers standpoint, but something has got to give, people can not get by on $7.45/hr.. A gallon of gas costs more than half the hourly min wage. A gallon of milk costs about a third, A box of cereal, a quarter, a loaf of bread, a seventh, where in hell would you find money for rent and utilities? Oh that's right, from the govt... And the cycle goes on.
How about a price freeze, then I would agree with a wage freeze.
March 6, 2013 - 6:08pm
#6
How can anyone disagree with raising minimum wage?? It was ok for the gas prices to climb to over 4.00 a gallon. Who suffered for that?? We did!!! Price increase in everything!!!! Who suffers for this?? That would be us!!! How can it be ok for everything to go up except the wages of people trying to make ends meet? What a system we have. Nothing is done for people who try to make an honest living. When is our government going to realize how much all this is hurting our children?? We have people that have been on unemployment for a long time, and they plan on staying on it for as long as they can. Why? Because they are making more money and don't have to do anything!!! The jobs pay NOTHING!!! The earned income credit doesn't really help single people either. Honest, hard working people are the ones we might want to think about helping. There is no job security anymore. There are also people who have worked places for 15 or more years at places and have lost their jobs. They go to try to get some help from our government, and they can't. Why, because they own a home, have to cars, and they make to much money to get help?? really?? How are we really supposed to live. Maybe we should call our politicians and ask them to buy some food so we can feed our children. I'm sorry for my ranting, but why is it, when it comes time for us to try to raise our minimum wage we have to listen to how much it will hurt businesses and not how much it hurts us???
March 6, 2013 - 7:07pm
#7
You're kidding, right? Ask any local small business owner wherever you happen to live and you'll get an earful as to why we have a serious problem with it. Those of us that are about to be impacted by this legislation ARE going to be forced to either raise prices on whatever goods or services we produce or reduce our payroll. The most likely outcome will be a combination of both options.
PS - Thank you Mr. Hawley. I'm pretty sure this bill will pass despite your voice of opposition but as a small business owner, I do appreciate your efforts on my behalf on the matter.
March 6, 2013 - 7:10pm
#8
Here is an example Robin,
My son is a college student that works for the Biology department at SUNY Fredonia, This morning, they students were told that if the minimum wage increase goes through, this summer, the they will only hire 10 Kids instead of the usual 15.
The department and the staff is funded by Federal Dollars, so if New York State raises the wage, and there is no corresponding increase of funds (Actually there will be a slight decrease) 5 of the 15 jobs will be eliminated.
Private sector employers are faced with the same dilemma, either raise prices or cut staff, I know that some Progressive out there will produce some spun facts to say the opposite, but the true fact is it take 18 months to a year for low level jobs to recover every time there is a minimum wage increase
March 6, 2013 - 7:13pm
#9
A price freeze made matters much worse when Nixon did it in the 70's, that never works, just remember 55 cents out of every gallon of gas sold in NY State goes to taxes.... Start there
March 6, 2013 - 8:43pm
#10
@Frank
"I wonder if Mr. Hawley could live on $7.45/hour, I really doubt it.Glad I never voted for him, another politician out of touch with reality."
Hawley obviously worked hard to improve his lot in life. Are you suggesting that merely being born entitles you to a "living wage"?
Work ethic in our country has disappeared for the most part. My first job I was paid minimum wage. I think it was $2.40 - 1972.
I don't make that now. Should I have just waited for the minimum wage to to be raised, or should I have worked REALLY WORKED HARD to better myself?
March 6, 2013 - 8:43pm
#11
Robin, at some point, business will price itself out of business, and blame it on everyone they had to pay to
do business. The little guy will get hit hardest if wages jump, I can't honestly refute that.
With that being said, I absolutley agree with your last sentence, and regardless of what statistical data you
plug in, the big fish always eat the little fish, and the big fish won't have it any other way.
March 6, 2013 - 8:50pm
#12
Minimum wage adjusted for inflation:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/02/the-case-for-a...
Distribution of wealth in the US:
March 6, 2013 - 10:18pm
#13
I never made minimum wage in my life. My first job was a dime more than minimum. I then leverage my good attendance and punctuality and work ethic to earn more. That was as a dishwasher.
Why didn't I ever earn the minimum? Because I didn't accept the fact that I was worth the bare minimum. If you are stuck in a minimum wage job, that is because of your choices, there fore you should suffer the consequences.
I now have my dream job. My boss is 2 hours away in Syracuse, my closest coworker is in Rochester and I set my own work hours. How did I get here? Making good choices, paying attention, and having marketable skills. I continue to impress my superiors on a daily basis and I am not afraid to learn or ask questions. I did this all without a college degree. I make enough money that if my wife lost her job we could live comfortably. I will have all my debt besides my car and house paid down to zero by the end of the year and the car will be paid off the following year. All because I chose to make success a priority in my life.
Some of it was being in the right place at the right time, but most of it was my hard work.
And now those that chose poorly in life will be getting a pay raise. Why? For votes. Its sad. Politicians will do anything to buy votes and now the American people have learned what their vote is worth.
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
March 6, 2013 - 10:20pm
#14
Joshua,
The premise of your second link will not be accepted by me. Wealth is not distributed. Its is earned. Therefore your link holds no water.
March 6, 2013 - 11:02pm
#15
Looking at those links, I see minimum wage leveling out. As far as looking at other nations, that is apples to oranges. Economic systems and tax structures are far too different to be able to compair in such a simple graph.
As far as the video goes, not only does it sound like normal liberal whines, but what does this guy define as wealth?
Just what is in their bank accounts? Or their entire holdings? Which would include the businesses they own/run.
I just "love" the comment of do they work as hard as their employees!
You bet your bippy!
As anyone can see from my profile, I own a very small business. But let me talk about the business I work for that that pays my bills for the moment. It is a nation wide company that employs ten of thousands of people. People that depend on the owner/CEO for their wages, healthcare benefits, etc.
I know for a fact he is in the top 1% if you include all of his holdings. He works very hard to maintain, build, and grow the corporation. Works damn hard to keep people employed while maintaining profitability. If he screws up, and we lose our profiability, we go out of business, and tens of thousands are out of work, with no health coverage. I can tell you, I DO NOT want that stress and weight on my shoulders.
He also may I point out he willfully takes a loss on our military. The company policy states, if an employee is a researvest in our armed forces, and is called to active duty, the eployees family keeps the full healthcare coverage, and if the military pay is less than the employees regular pay, the company pays the difference. No matter how long the employee is on active duty. Damn, what an evil man he is.
Now if you look at his cash income alone, he is definatly not in the 1%. He actually would be somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd 20% group.
So what does this guy on the video use as his determination for wealth? I can play with numbers all day long and make all sorts of assumptions on those different number sets.
I would also like to point out that the top 1% pay the overwealming lion share of the taxes the government collects. So I dont want to hear any of this "pay their fair share" crap. They pay too much by percentage as it is.
Now he makes more money than I will ever see. Do I begrudge him one dollar of it? HELL NO !!!
Raising the minimum wage hurts the companies bottom line. So prices go up, or cost of labor has to go down. Not a call I want to make.
The Declaration of Independence states, life, liberty, and the PERSUIT of happiness. Not the achiving or distribution of it.
Dont like the minimum wage? Do something about it yourself. Work to make your dream come true. Yes, it takes work, and it takes time. Tom Golisano started out borrowing a couple hundred bucks from his dad. Look what he did with hard work. He made his situation better all on his own. It can be and has been done thousands of times.
No I do not work for Paychex. My companies social media policy bars me from saying what it is in this setting.
March 7, 2013 - 6:13am
#16
Are people really this naive, look at the shambles of an economy we have at present.I get a kick out of the
examples used, like the one above, one person makes it, but how many don't.
I worked hard, went up the ladder a few rungs, and was thrown out like yesterdays trash when the plant closed.
This is all my own fault??? Tried going to college, but trying to work, go to school, and balance the home budget
didn't work out so well.
When the Tech classes were offered, I signed up, only to find the classes were offered during the day.
Makes it impossible when you work during the day.
What I'm hearing, or inferring, is this, it's ok for business to ask for more for the products they sell,
because their expenses go up, but not ok to pay people a wage that reflects the increased costs to consumers.
I smell Republicans.
March 7, 2013 - 7:52am
#17
Hope you feel sorry for the ones who get their hours cut or are laid off so the small businesses can make up the extra $4,000 that they have to pay. Where is that money supposed to come from? So many of the minimum wage workers do not work for the big box type companies that absorb this. And most of them will cut hours and hire fewer than they might have. Also, this being tied to inflation will mean more will never be hired.
I bet one of the things you see are many more self check outs at stores to cut cashiers.
March 7, 2013 - 8:14am
#18
Id like to comment on this from another angle. First of all people can live on minimum wage, and even less, ask anyone that has a job that includes accounting of tips. Yes its hard and not fun but its not as impossible as people express. What the true fact is that people cant live the way they WANT to on minimum wage, you cant drive an expensive suv, or go out to dinner every week or buy clothes or new hobby equipment, maybe not go to florida this year for vaca and such. These are things people are thinking are expected. Maybe your bills wouldnt be so high if you spend what you have instead of using credit. Maybe simplify your life, your kids dont need the latest iphones, videogae systems or flat screen technology. Its not to say you cant have those things, but even those things can had for much cheaper prices if you, wait for their initial popularity or inflated price to go down, or look for someone who has bought, used and is now bored and onto the next thing and is selling it cheap. But again that takes work. Things go up and down so quickly these days that thing that took decades between spikes can go up and down several times in one day. Just look through anything people claim they NEED then listen. Gas could be saved by carpooling and chipping in on the drivers gas.... but thats too inconvenient or doesnt allow any freedom. Food.... money can be saved by not buying convenience style food and learning to buy basics and do for yourself whatever happened to coffee in a thermos instead of Tims Cup of Joe.
Its really not about need.....YET. Its about wants, and expectations.
March 7, 2013 - 9:02am
#19
John, now come on, you know all small business owners are rolling in filthy lucre, hoarding their profits instead of sharing their wealth. An extra $4,000? They won't even miss it. Petty cash.
March 7, 2013 - 9:22am
#20
Ok Frank, I'll respond to your points.
Why is the economy in a shambles? Too many taxes and reguations on businesses AND citizens. A government that spends more than it takes in. Businesses and citizens cant do that. Its called going bankrupt. They raise taxes on everyone to get more money. Businesses expenses go up and citzens have less to spend. So there is your economy in a shambles.
Thrown out like yesturdays trash when the plant closed. Ok, why did the plant close? Was it no longer able to provide its products at competative prices and still be profitable? Was it labor costs, taxes, regulations and fees? Bet it was combination of all three. So the plant either folded, was broken up and sold off, or moved operations to a different state or country where costs could be reduced and they could then stay competative and regain profitability. So the employees here went from getting a wage of whatever level to nothing.
So was that your fault? No. You were just victim of it. Further education and job training are not easy to accomplish and you may have to do things you dont want to do to get it. Your routine of life may have to change to get what you need to go where you want to go. Millions of people through out the centuries sucked it up and did it. While millions of others just curled up into a ball and "cried woe is me"
It is not ok to raise prices due to increased costs caused by a government increasing taxes, fees, and regulation. Minimum wage is a regulation. Now think for a minute. You raise your prices and increase wages. That is a zero sum for citizens. You got a higher wage, but, now things cost more. So what is gained? Nothing!
Also consider the costs they dont talk about with the minimum wage increase. $4000 per minimum wage increase which has to come from somewhere, and raises to the other employees. Didn't think about that did you folks? My wife started at minimum wage at her job and is now at $9/hr. She worked hard to get there. Now a new hire gets her wage she worked hard for?! No, her wage will have to go up also. How much will the cost the company?
This is all common sense from your high school economics class, at least before the government started screwing with ciriculums in schools.
And for the record, I am not registered or affiliated with any political party. Never have been. All of them are self serving, instead of serving the people. If I ever find one that truely stands up for The Constitution for the United States of America, I will gladly join it.
March 7, 2013 - 9:40am
#21
Scott: "And for the record, I am not registered or affiliated with any political party. Never have been. All of them are self serving, instead of serving the people. If I ever find one that truely stands up for The Constitution for the United States of America, I will gladly join it."
I invite you to check us out
March 7, 2013 - 10:05am
#22
I can also cite you two presidents who cut taxes and gutted dumb regulations. In both instances business grew, expanded, hired more people. The economy took off, and quality of life improved.
Ronald Reagan Republican
John F Kennedy Democrat
They got it, guess party line didnt matter.
By the way, remember, "ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU"
March 7, 2013 - 10:17am
#23
There were actually three presidents that did that Scott
Warren G Harding cut the federal budget 50% in two years 1921 and 1922 and eliminated a ton of regulations put in place in the decade before. and the economy flourished into what we now call the roaring 20's
March 7, 2013 - 11:30am
#24
OATKA is hiring they pay more than minimum wage...just an fyi....lets all face it we are slaves to our jobs so that others that rely on you to put money in thier pockets may live better than you... period!
March 7, 2013 - 11:48am
#25
It would be more like a cost of living raise. Look how much prices have gone up over the years. A small sub is now the price of what a large sub used to be...rent is ridiculously high... I dont know how any one on minimum wage makes it...or even gets to enjoy things like a dinner or a movie...minimum pay wage jobs used to be for those who temporarily needed extra cash for college or what have you...now those minimum pay jobs are all that some people can get as a primary job...theyd rather take something than nothing...its not like batavia is booming like it was back in the 70s...oh those were the days do you remember? we had Kisiels, Dohler Jarvis, Meltons just to name a few...we also had a main street...those days are long gone...sadly...today the economy is in despair..simply because who can afford anything other than goods from the dollar stores or walfreakinchinamart....which in turn china is profiting not us...so maybe adding a little extra in the minimum wage coffer will slowly chip away at an ailing economy...dont have to bring up the greed on top...they ll never give up anything ...tho thats part of the answer to all this
March 7, 2013 - 12:07pm
#26
If New York state didn't tax every part of your life you would not need to increase the minimum wage..We pay an 8% sales tax on what we spend..We also pay tax on all utilities we use...We pay a tax on our cell phone and cable..We pay a tax on the gasoline we buy..We pay tax on the property we own..And on top of all this we first have to pay a tax on the wages we make..Then we pay all the above taxes.....We don't need a higher minimum wage ..We need less taxation..You don't hear Coumo talking about that as the problem..Instead he plays the raise the minimum wage card..This causes the business owner to not only pay the higher rate but that causes him to pay more into social security, disability unemployment insurance..New York State has a taxation problem not a minimum wage problem..
March 7, 2013 - 12:24pm
#27
Mary, you could have started your own business any time in your life, assumed the risk, put forward the effort, taken on the long hours, and then benefit from its growth.
Anybody in America can do that.
Some people are more comfortable working for others. They want more time for their families, more time for their hobbies, less worry, less risk.
These are all choices Americans are free to make. Each choice has its rewards and its hardships, but they are your choices.
March 7, 2013 - 12:40pm
#28
I find it truly sad that we have come to a point that success is met with jealousy and envy. As Americans we have always admired and emulated success.
Yes Frank, the big fish will swallow the little fish, but we all began as little fish, so ultimately it is the choices that we make that determine our lot in life.
March 7, 2013 - 2:50pm
#29
Admittedly I am ignorant about tax law and from what info I could find, arent employee wages a tax deduction? Also I thought that employee benefits (healthcare) is also deductible? Is there someone with knowledge of this who can tell me if I am mistaken?
"As a general rule, a business can claim a tax deduction for the salary, wages, commissions, bonuses, and other compensation it pays to its employees. In fact, if you have employees, it's likely that your deductions for employee compensation will be one of your largest deductible expenses."
---
In regards to Mr. Brudz' comment regarding success met with jealous and envy, I have noticed that while some people laud success in certain factions of the economy (CEO's CFOs, business owners; they went to college, they are smart, they work hard) yet spew envy if it is another type of profession (teacher; only work 6 hours a day, get the whole summer off, union thugs). Strange.
March 7, 2013 - 3:51pm
#30
Ms. Pugliese ,
I hope that you are not implying in anyway that I ever bemoaned teachers working 6 hour days, getting the whole summer off etc. in anyway. In fact I have taken quite the opposite position.
If you have seen a post that you think otherwise by me, please direct me to it so that I may clarify what you perceive that I was implying. Teachers in my opinion are the cornerstone of our success every bitt as much as the CEO's, CFO's and business owners that they taught.
March 7, 2013 - 3:51pm
#31
Look at this way Howard, Billie got a raise:)
March 7, 2013 - 4:02pm
#32
No Mr. Brudz,
Was not directed at you, just a general observation that came to my mind when I read jealousy and envy part of your post. Sorry if my post seemed as if I was attributing my thought to something you had previously posted, I was simply directing it to you as it was your statement.
March 7, 2013 - 4:20pm
#33
Well I do agree with you in some cases that is absolutely true with regard to the mixed signals that some send
March 7, 2013 - 5:19pm
#34
John, Billie would LOVE to make at least minimum wage.
March 7, 2013 - 7:50pm
#35
So what I'm hearing is, don't raise min wage because it will raise prices, cost jobs, and I'm just jealous.
Get f...ing real.
All of the above has already happened, with the exception being
a raise in min wage., and I'm not jealous, no need to be, no one
outside of my family means enough to me to invest my emotions.
March 7, 2013 - 8:18pm
#36
Frank,
Where do you think small business will get the extra $4,000 per year, per person?
March 7, 2013 - 8:44pm
#37
Scott, ask not what your country can do for you, well lets see, if you're a huge financial institution, or a US automaker, seems they asked and got plenty.
Mark, the big fish will swim to China, there are more little fish there to exploit.
March 7, 2013 - 9:49pm
#38
Did you forget that Ford Motor Company told Obama to take his welfare money and stick it? They were back in the black before the rest of them. Business making their own choices without the government directing them for them just to get the welfare money.
I have the rare advantage of being an employee and an owner of a business in the growing stages. My perspective allows me to see both sides of the coin. And let me tell you, getting a business going is a royal pain in the butt with the hoops you have jump through, the fees, the regulations, etc. I am a sole propriater, I looked into LLC and incorporation. Boy did that make my head spin!
I am a simple individule. I beleave in the Constitution. I beleave the government needs to stay out of our lives as the framers intended. The rates of taxation now are triple of what they were when the colonists had enough and revolted against England. I am a study of history and know that those who do not study it are doomed to repeat it. We are on parallel with Roman Empire and look what happened to them. They were not the only empire or culture who went down this same road and fell apart at the seems.
I try to use common sense before emotion. Not always successful, be we are all a work in process. I learn from my mistakes and try to use the knowledge gained to its best potential.
What I do for myself and my country is strive to be self reliant. If I succeed or fail, it is of my own doing. If I want something, I work for it. I dont need to be taxed to death and would like to grow my business to be able to hire employees. Life would be a lot easier if the governments would stop making it harder to do that.
This is my last post on this thread. This horse has been beat to death.
March 8, 2013 - 6:42am
#39
Scott, in response to #20, none of what you mentioned closed the plant. Heres a little insight.
A bigger company bought the plant, they paid 1.5 mil. for a turn key operation. They stuck around for 5 years,
They sent junk equipment to the plant, out dated raw materials, and put all that crap on the books.
When they left town, they had wrote off almost 30 mil.against that plant.You tell me what happened.
They bought the plant to steal away the customer base, plain and simple, and in doing so, pocketed a cool
28 mil.. Not a bad return for investing 1.5 mil.
Corporate greed is ruining this country, not the working man, hes the one who is getting beat to death.
March 8, 2013 - 9:13am
#40
Mary (My GF), is the manager of a retail store in an outlet mall. She has a specific dollar amount for payroll every month regardless of what the minimum wage is. If minimum wage goes up, her payroll budget remains the same. She either has to get rid of an employee or two, or make up the extra hours herself because she's a salaried employee. All of you whining in favor of a minimum wage hike, are you willing to donate your own money to help increase the payroll budget for a small business. How can you NOT understand the negative economic impact of a minimum wage increase to a small business?
March 8, 2013 - 9:49am
#41
But does the business owner deduct the wages as a business expense? Here is a small business worksheet I found from a CPA.
http://www.cpapros.com/Worksheets/SmallBusiness_Deductions.pdf
What I am asking is if the wages are indeed deductible if John Doe, Business Owner has to pay minimum wage at 9.00 instead of the 7.25, wouldn't it simply be a bigger deduction?
March 8, 2013 - 10:53am
#42
The whole point that continues to be missed in this discussion is that raising the minimum wage by law just continues to feed the problem; Which is inflation, devaluation of the dollar and excessive government spending. I agree that the unholy alliance between large multi-national corporations and Demican and Republocrat politicians is holding their collective boot on the neck of the average citizen. But raising the minimum wage which by design causes everyone who makes more than that to believe they should get more causes the labor market to get an artificial paradigm shift. EVERYONE pays more income tax, the government gets fatter, politicians scramble to get their piece, prices on goods and services go up, the fed has to print more money, the dollar falls further, and the very rich and the political elite get richer and more powerful, while the rest of us get pushed down again. Cuomo and Obama are tossing crumbs to keep the masses quiet, they think we all idiots. All you're shouting for is a little more exercise time in the prison yard.
Edited because a couple of my sentence structures didn't make sense. That's what happens kids, when you let emotion overrule thoughtful logic. You get run-on sentences without proper structure.
March 8, 2013 - 10:44am
#43
Debbie, you do not grow a business using tax deductions, without business growth there not only new jobs, but fewer raises. Additionally, tax deductions do not put more cash flow on a month to month basis, so again you are left with a likely increase in the cost of goods and services.
Secondly, a tax deduction does not mean that you are a wash, you might be able to claim 100% of the increase, but the actual effect might only be 20% of the cost depending on a whole list of other factors.
Dave is absolutely on target, the populace response is YEA more money in my pocket, but the reality is cost of goods (inflation), mitigates any gain,
Additionally, if you raise the minimum from $7.45 to $9.00, what do you do with the loyal employee that worked their way up to $9.00 from $7.45? Do you give them a raise? Where does that money come from?
March 8, 2013 - 11:32am
#44
If raising the minimum wage was the solution, the last increase would have solved the problem.
March 8, 2013 - 12:16pm
#45
If anyone wants a chance at living a decent life you need to plan to move out of New York. I do agree with Steve in every aspect esp separating New York City from the rest of the state.
March 8, 2013 - 12:50pm
#46
There are lots of people right here in Genesee County, of all ages, "living a decent life."
NYS has it's problems, but it also has its benefits. We make a lot less money than we did in California, but our quality of life has improved substantially, even with the higher taxes.
March 8, 2013 - 2:13pm
#47
Debbie, not all the labor costs are returend 100%, only a percentage. And do not forget, that on top of the extra $4,000 that might have to be paid, the employer has to pay 6.2% Social Security tax on that $4k.
March 8, 2013 - 5:29pm
#48
Doug, here is something to chew on , if all these small business owners can't afford to take a min wage increase, who the hell is going to work for them, obviously there would be no pay raises, not now, not ever, HOWS THAT FOR WHINING.
John, so if prices keep going up, and no one gets a pay raise, at what point do people just say screw it, why not go on welfare, it pays more with better benefits.
March 9, 2013 - 7:57am
#49
Frank, you're making the argument for non minimum wage whatsoever.
Businesses will pay the wages necessary to keep and retain employees, because without employees they're not in business, and if they can't afford to pay what the marketplace demands, they won't be in business.
If people are willing to work for $4 an hour, that's what they will pay, but if if they can't find anybody who will work for less than $11 an hour, that's what they'll pay (or they'll fail).
And if you're an a person who is only qualified for the lower paying jobs, you accept the available rate or you go on welfare or you start a lawn care business ... if there aren't enough people willing to take jobs at the wages offered, then employers are forced to raise their rates or go out of business (minimum wage or not)
People act that the bad, bad employers are taking advantage of the poor, disfranchised workers. But if workers didn't find it economically advantageous to take the hourly rate offered, the employer would be forced to pay more or go out of business.
March 9, 2013 - 8:15am
#50
Frank, you still have not told us where small businesses will get the extra $4,000 per person and the extra 6.2% for the SS tax.
March 9, 2013 - 12:46pm
#51
John, you still haven't told me where people making min wage will get the money to pay for goods and services whose prices just keep going up.
Howard, I somewhat agree with you,with the exception of your last paragraph, yes, some employers are taking full advantage of the glut of unemployed people.
Many working min wage jobs are displaced workers, retirees, or college students, but there are also those
who suddenly found themselves in the job market due to the miserable economy, the high taxes, or their
significant other is working a min wage job that just doesn't get the bills paid.
That's reality, I'm not making this crap up.
How do you become qualified for a min wage job?..
That sentence in itself, shows how truely bad this country has gotten.
March 9, 2013 - 1:40pm
#52
Frank, Minimum wage increases are only a band aid, if you want to improve peoples lot in life the ONLY way is through economic development.
What holds us back in New York and other large states is basically taxes and regulation.
Here is an example, Wiliston North Dakota, The property taxes are minimal, income taxes minimal but more important, regulations are minimal.
North Dakota leads the nation in Fracking right now, it has created an oil boom. Although the state minimum wage in ND is $7.45, The starting hourly wage at a McDonalds or Burger King is $15/hr, The reason the business can afford to pay this is because the cash flow from the influx of construction workers, oil field workers and truck drivers alone supports the higher hourly rate. Also, the need to attract good employees creates a competitive environment
It is a basic formula, that although the more progressive among us will always try to counter, the truth is they can't Low Tax Rate + minimal sensible regulation = $$$ which in turn = higher pay and more jobs
But don't take my word for it,
March 9, 2013 - 1:56pm
#53
Frank,
Nobody said that without the min. wage increase workers would just find extra money, they will not. The concern is that many will lose on this. There will be some who get laid off and others who get hours cut. Businesses will find new ways to cut workers. More self check outs is just one example.
Now you tell us where the businesses will find that money.
March 9, 2013 - 2:20pm
#54
Frank wrote, "some employers are taking full advantage of the glut of unemployed people."
Nobody is taking advantage of anything. It's called free market. It's called supply and demand.
If employers can get employes to work for $x, they're going to hire employees for $x. If they're aren't enough employees willing to work at that price, or they're dissatisfied with the quality of employees at that price, then the market demands they increases their wages.
Nobody is forcing people to work for those wages. People freely choose to take those jobs.
If person Y doesn't want to work for minimum wage, there's nothing stopping person Y from, for example, starting his or her own business.
March 9, 2013 - 2:35pm
#55
John, THE MONEY COMES FROM WHERE IT ALWAYS DOES, THE EMPLOYEES POCKET.
A) Reduced benefits
B) More work, less hours.
C) No Overtime
D) I could go on forever.
Howard, again, I' m not in total disagreement, just wondering where
the break even point is, yes business creates jobs, no dispute.
But when I see these same companies scream about belt tightening,
they in turn spend money for drug testing, and staffing agencies.
I can look at someone, and listen to them, and ascertain whether
they may or may not use/abuse drugs, and if I'm a business owner,
I want to be the first person to interview anyone I would "invest" in
employing.
March 10, 2013 - 12:54pm
#56
Here is my last post on this issue, it cost an average family of 4 approx. $7,000.00/yr for groceries, and that
is the low end cost, 10 gallons of gas is $40.00/wk = $1,080.00/yr.
If one person making min wage is the sole provider for this family, based on a 40 hour work week, and before
taxes, the yearly gross income is $15,500.00, which is below the poverty level.
Before taxes that leaves $7,420.00 for housing and utilities/year.
The "free market" you speak of Howard is an illusion, based on several factors, where the hell would a person
making 15 grand a year ever come up with, or get a loan to start a business?There is always someone willing to do a job for min wage, it beats starving, barely, see above.
Some people who work these jobs are to proud to take govt. handouts, look for that to change if the economy
doesn't improve.
Some people worked good paying jobs for years, but when they need those jobs the most, the economy shit the bed,
prices for goods and services have skyrocketed out of control, jobs have disappeared, and the only people
anyone seems to have emphathy for is business.
Last but not least, the gcedc is giving away tax dollars to business, what is being done for the working man?
the promise of jobs in the future, I'll beleive it when I see it.
Where the hell is Robin Hood when you need him?? lol.
March 10, 2013 - 3:01pm
#57
What is generally agreed upon by all advocate parties in the minimum wage argument is that the number of individuals relying on the minimum wage in the United States is less than 5%. Of that 5%, over 60% are under the age of 26. 20% are second jobs and/ retirement jobs.
Families need a living wage, not a minimum wage, no one disputes that. With that said, working at McDonald's or the local gas station isn't a career. These are jobs designed to help entry-level workers join the workforce, not to support the financial needs of a family.
You asked early on If Steve Hawley could live on $745 an hour, Well he could not maintain his lifestyle on that for sure, but Steve Hawley doesn't have a job, he has a career.
The problem with the "What about the working man' argument is that it is bogus, it assumes that someone is always at fault, it is always because of the rich guy, or because of the banks or because of whatever. It also assumes that others are responsible for your wage, your effort, neither is true.
A living wage vs a minimum wage should be the argument, and a living wage comes from business growth and the competition for employees that follows. States that are flourishing today are those with little or no state income tax, low property taxes and low corporate taxes, Ironically, most of them are on the lower end of the minimum wage ladder as well. There would be no need for EDC's if the tax environment was attractive to business and industrial growth in the first place.
That is what the Free Market truly is, not what you seem to say it is.
March 10, 2013 - 3:39pm
#58
Frank,
First off. you approach this with an attitude that sounds a lot like "the world owes me a living."
(maybe you not you personally, but just the idea that ... gee, companies should be forced to pay more because you can't support a family on minimum wage screams of being "owed" just because you're alive)
There is no individual on this planet who is owed anything just because they are alive. There are people who maybe need our charity, but what we're talking about is the typical not the extreme. The typical being an person with all his faculties who can work.
If that person chooses to make a career of flipping hamburgers at McDonald's for minimum wage and parent a child or two, who's fault is that? Should the franchise owner be forced to pay $15 an hour just because that person "deserves" it just for being alive?
See what Mark said about the numbers on minimum wage.
Anybody with a modicum of ambition acquires the skills and experience necessary to obtain employment from employers who would never dream of hiring minimum wage people. The free market often demands $12, $15, $20 an hour for jobs that don't require much of an education and little specialized training. And employers pay those wages because to get qualified people willing to work hard demands that they go well beyond minimum wage.
As for your statement, "where the hell would a person making 15 grand a year ever come up with, or get a loan to start a business?"
Let me begin with, that I realize that owning your own business isn't for everyone, but the idea that you have to have certain credentials or money to start a business is just factually not true.
Anybody can start a business and many people have and have made anything from comfortable livings for themselves to becoming rich. Being your own boss affords a great opportunity to make a lot of money. Or you just have the freedom of being your own boss and knowing the money you make is your money.
Yours isn't the first response I've seen, when I suggest, "start your own business," that goes along the lines of: I don't have money to invest. I don't have time. I can't quite my job. I have a family to support, and so on. Always an excuse.
Let me introduce your to Martin Revson. In 1930, Revson was a sales man and he hit upon an idea. He had no education, no money, no connected family and no investors. There was no reason to believe his unproven ideas would ever make him any money, especially as an under-capitalized venture.
Revson, with a wife and baby, quit his job and started his company. His brother was a partner, handling the books, but he kept his day job. His other partner was the "chemist" but he really knew nothing about chemistry. He just had some family recipes for the initial product. Revson was the company's only full time employee for a couple of years, and orders trickled in, and the product didn't always perform as expected, which led to complaints, which Revson addressed with each customer in person, trying to perfect his product.
The product was nail polish, which existed before, but not as an opaque polish with a variety of colors. The early problem he had to fix was the polish sometimes turned yellow when it dried.
With everything stacked against him, Revson pushed on.
In 1932 gross sales were $4,800.
In 1940, gross sales were $2.8 million (in 1940 dollars)
Through the near entirety of the depression, this uneducated, under-funded business man grew his business nearly 600 fold, and he revolutionized the cosmetics industry.
If you haven't guessed yet, the company is Revlon.
It doesn't take a college education, a lot of cash, a rich family, the right connections or any of those external factors to start a business. All it takes is a good idea and the ambition and hard work to follow it through.
March 10, 2013 - 4:36pm
#59
Mark,
You owe Hawley an apology. He owns his own business and employs people, and that is called a job.
That's in addition to being an Assemblyman.
March 10, 2013 - 5:04pm
#60
John, Steve has a career in the insurance industry, I wasn't referring to his political position at all. He is a professional, that is more than a job, that by definition is a career whether he owns the business or not.
And he not only creates jobs, he supports the careers of others.. I am pretty sure Steve knows exactly what I meant and agrees with me, no apology required.
Definition of career:
Noun; An occupation undertaken for a significant period of a person's life and with opportunities for progress.
March 10, 2013 - 5:39pm
#61
Mark,
OK
March 10, 2013 - 6:17pm
#62
Howard, Mark, we can agree to disagree forever, but I never said anyone owed anybody anything, those are your words. I never pointed a finger at anyone looking for blame or fault, again your words not mine.
It is also not the working man who sets tax rates, or raises prices for goods and services.
Jobs at or below the fed.min wage can be found in most every industry,
no need to stereotype.
March 11, 2013 - 5:41am
#63
According to the Bureau of labor statistics, labor accounts for approx. 20% of revunues, and the only reason the numbers are that high is due to the hospitality industry, which is around 40-60%. The lastest numbers will be out in a couple of days.
Yo votedowns, or cowards, post your thoughts, or don't you have any?
March 11, 2013 - 10:15am
#64
SO WHAT FRANK
Revenue/profit ratios are what matter and typically they are less than 9%, in the grocery industry they may be as low as 3%
March 11, 2013 - 7:29pm
#65
Mark, I know, the figures are an average % of all industries, what is YOUR point? I like CAPS 2 lol..
March 11, 2013 - 7:52pm
#66
I give up Frank, enjoy your bliss.
March 11, 2013 - 10:33pm
#67
Mark, sounds like your talking out of both sides of your mouth.....back in February on the 4th day.
What my post stated: "I don't know for sure, but maybe if NYS didn't have the 2nd highest taxes in the US, maybe we wouldn't need to "bribe" companies & industries to stay here......somebody has to make up these "tax breaks" that are given to certain businesses'........NYS is a total mess and until there is some sort of reform in Albany, we will continue to be one of the leaders of the pack of out of control taxes(gasoline, sales taxes, property taxes and on and on). Not to mention all the regulations placed on businesses. NYS is not very business friendly is what I'm just trying to say......"
Your response: "
Well you would be wrong, States are in competition, and they all do the incentive game to lure business
New York isn't even in the top ten for tax incentives but is in the top 2 for taxes required. To simply cut this off in NY state would place us at a huge disadvantage.
Below I went through three states alphabetically then New York, then Texas which gives the most incentive, ironically, Texas is one of the top growth states for business in the US.
Pay particular attention to cost per dollar of budgets and per capita cost
____________________________________
Alabama spends at least $277 million per year on incentive programs, according to the most recent data available. That is roughly:
$58per capita
4¢per dollar of state budget
.
Top Incentives by type
$129 million in Cash grant, loan or loan guarantee
$64.9 million in Sales tax refund, exemptions or other sales tax discounts
$49.8 million in Corporate income tax credit, rebate or reduction
Top Incentives by industry
$22.5 million in Technology
$15 million in Film
_______________________________
Alaska
Alaska spends at least $704 million per year on incentive programs, according to the most recent data available. That is roughly:
$991per capita
11¢per dollar of state budget
.
Top Incentives by type
$697 million in Corporate income tax credit, rebate or reduction
$6.93 million in Cash grant, loan or loan guarantee
Top Incentives by industry
$691 million in Oil, gas, mining
$6.12 million in Agriculture
$3.65 million in Film
_______________________________
Arizona
$230per capita
16¢per dollar of state budget
.
Top Incentives by type
$1.37 billion in Sales tax refund, exemptions or other sales tax discounts
$64.6 million in Corporate income tax credit, rebate or reduction
$41 million in Cash grant, loan or loan guarantee
Top Incentives by industry
$51.8 million in Manufacturing
$43.6 million in Oil, gas, mining
$20.4 million in Electricity
__________________________________
New York
New York spends at least $4.06 billion per year on incentive programs, according to the most recent data available. That is roughly:
$210per capita
7¢per dollar of state budget
.
Top Incentives by type
$1.82 billion in Corporate income tax credit, rebate or reduction
$1.11 billion in Property tax abatement
$871 million in Sales tax refund, exemptions or other sales tax discounts
Top Incentives by industry
$816 million in Manufacturing
$359 million in Film
$130 million in Agriculture
___________________________________
Texas
Texas spends at least $19.1 billion per year on incentive programs, according to the most recent data available. That is roughly:
$759per capita
51¢per dollar of state budget
.
Top Incentives by type
$14.9 billion in Sales tax refund, exemptions or other sales tax discounts
$3.27 billion in Property tax abatement
$743 million in Corporate income tax credit, rebate or reduction
Top Incentives by industry
$11.7 billion in Manufacturing
$2.79 billion in Agriculture
$77.3 million in Health care
__________________________________
There is a neat little look up tool on the right side mid way down the article on this page.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/us/winners-and-losers-in-texas.html?pa...
Things are rarely as simple as people try to make them"
Now re-read your post from Feb. 9th that I'm replying to and how can you tell me I'm wrong? You basically said NYS has high taxes, a lot of regulations, etc etc. Pretty much what I had stated.
For the record, I am against an increase in the minimum wage for a lot of the same reasons you and some of the other commentators on this forum have posted. My point in that post from 2/4/13 was if NYS were more business friendly, we wouldn't need an EIDC.
John Roach, your post about the ramifications about employers having to pay 6.2% in SS fund and more into the un-employment insurance fund is spot on!
March 11, 2013 - 10:54pm
#68
Michael WTF are you talking about....
My comments where about minimum wage
As far as talking both sides of my mouth, read the old post and current thread again.
I said, If tax rates were minimal, we wouldn't need EDC's
The older post you pulled was specifically because of various tax rates the EDC's are necessary to compete. I don't see the conflict at all.
I am pragmatic, if's aren't reality only wishes, the older post simply pointed out that NY State was NOT the leading spender for IDC's and that IDC's in the current environment are necessary to compete.
In a perfect world, with minimal taxes, I wouldn't stand by that. But in the current world being one of the top five taxing states, We pretty much do not have a choice.
Again, My February 4th statement was a FACTUAL representation of what exist, New York is not in the TOP Ten States for tax Incentives, Apples and oranges to what we are discussing today.
March 11, 2013 - 10:49pm
#69
And Michael, see my post in January
http://thebatavian.com/howard-owens/todays-poll-should-states-minimum-wa...
I have been very consistent on this and have researched it in depth
March 11, 2013 - 11:16pm
#70
Michael, I apologize, my reply on the 4th of February was meant for the post above yours, Sincerely forgive me for that, but I stand by my facts
March 12, 2013 - 12:03am
#71
Your right as far as apples and oranges of what we are talking about today but the point I was trying to make back in the Feb post was NY is not business friendly and we use incentives from IDC's to lure or keep businesses'. If we had lower taxes and less regulations, we wouldn't need them. We are one of the leaders in the country in taxes as you confirmed. I know what the Feb post said, and obviously I know what the current thread was or I wouldn't have commented in regard to the tax & regulation comments made. I'm smart enough to know from your posts that you are diligent and thorough before you comment. on any subject matter on this site. I agree with most of your posts(even though I have the feeling you could care less whether I do or not).
March 12, 2013 - 12:08am
#72
Michael, likewise I agree with most of your post, in fact 99.9%, You are correct about NY not being business friendly as well.
I may submit that our difference here is actually quite a minor one. Be well my online friend, we do share many common opinions as is very apparent.
March 12, 2013 - 12:17am
#73
Mark, I totally agree that we do share a lot of the same views on the various subject matters, stories and polls. I do wish you well also and look forward to your voice of reason as well as the many other posters opinions and views whether I agree with what they say or not. You have to admit, they're some very knowledgeable contributors on this site and some with very amusing ones too.
March 12, 2013 - 12:28am
#74
100% on both counts Michael, 100%
April 25, 2013 - 10:47pm
#75
its just a sad state of affairs i guess
Couldn't agree with you more, Steve.