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Council will meet Monday to consider replacement for Engine 14

By Howard B. Owens

Engine 14 is out of service.

The 1989 Pierce Pumper was decommissioned last month and needs to be replaced, according to City of Batavia Fire Chief Jim Maxwell.

Maxwell prepared a memo for the city council to consider with options for replacing the pumper and explaining that the 23-year-old engine has proven increasingly unreliable.

"The unit since my arrival has been undependable when placed into service and has broken down during operations at two significant incidents," Maxwell wrote. "As we neared the end of 2011, it became evident that Engine 14 was not going to last until we took delivery of a new engine."

The city has been preparing for the retirement of Engine 14 and over the past four years has been able to set aside fire equipment reserves of $360,000.

The council will be asked Monday to decide whether to buy a new engine, buy a demonstration unit or buy a used piece of equipment.

City staff is recommending the city try to buy a demonstration unit.

Maxwell, in his memo, presented the pros and cons of each option.

For example, a new unit would be much more expensive, but could be outfitted exactly to city specifications and would come with a warranty.

With a used unit, you never know if you're buying somebody else's problems. There's no warranty. It would have a short life expectancy and would be outfitted to another department's specifications, but would be the least expensive option.

The demo unit is the middle ground -- less expensive than new, might need some equipment changes, but would still be under warranty and would likely be in service longer than used equipment.

When Engine 14 was inspected by Churchville Fire Equipment, inspectors found 51 deficiencies with the truck. Most of them could be fixed at a cost of $15,000 but the engine would still not meet National Fire Protection Association standards.

Until a replacement engine is purchase, the city is using a loaner from the City of Rochester Fire Department.

The department has two other trucks -- Ladder 15 and Engine 12, which go out on almost all city calls. Engine 14 was used for multiple-alarm fires, or when one of the other engines was being repaired or going through preventive maintenance, or when the city's Fast Team was called to the scene of a fire elsewhere in Genesee County.

Eric [Rick] von kramer

I have never been a person to buy new, but there are times when it is the best choice, I don't believe this is one of those times. Resale is sometimes a consideration in buying new, that shouldn't be an issue here, as it will be kept long enough to "use it up". Warantee is important, the difference between a new warrantee and a demonstator warantee [ if there is any] needs to be considred. The cost to retrofit the unit to batavia's specs is the other big consideration. Get out the calculator, that will answer the question

Jan 6, 2012, 2:00pm Permalink
Kyle Couchman

Phil if you have to paint it....see if Howard will go halfsies with ya and then paint it w the Batavian's colorscheme and logo. You can have Howard perch on top of the ladder and get him in all kinds of new angles for photos

Jan 6, 2012, 3:14pm Permalink
Dave Olsen

I don't think you'll have to paint it. But you can't run the lights and siren. And whatfun would that be?
We could make a pretty cool Animal House type float for the next parade out of it!

Jan 6, 2012, 3:40pm Permalink
Kyle Couchman

Thats not true Dave...you can run the lights ans siren any time ya want. Just not legally....

But the most important fact we need is....How much beer will it hold?!?

And the next question after that is....how do we dispense the beer with the hose nozzels ..... without spilling any.

Jan 6, 2012, 3:51pm Permalink
Dave Olsen

You could just tap into the tank, but how to keep it cold is the real question. I'd go with gut the innards, put in a big cooler and there should be enough space left over for a pig roaster/ grill at the rear. Take tailgating to a new level. Now that's a party I could join!

Jan 6, 2012, 3:58pm Permalink
Paul Dibble

Dear City Council,

That truck should have been replaced BEFORE the 20 year mark,more like the 15 year mark. Unlike a DPW dump truck that spends 90% of it's life empty,and may last 20 years,fire trucks are fully loaded with 500-1,000 gallons of water(on average),hose and equipment ALL the time,and are worked hard from a cold start. No- to used, and demo units usually come with a warranty-they're new trucks build for equipment shows or whoever wants it in the meantime. Also, alot can change in less than 20 years,buying a "cookie cutter engine" leaves you with little options for expansion or equipment changes in a VERY short time,buy what you THINK you'll need for the next 15 years,not for now. It's used for life safety,both the public's and firefighter's. With a good spec that multiple vendors can bid on fairly,I'm sure you can get the truck you need at a reasonable price. Good luck Chief...

Jan 6, 2012, 4:52pm Permalink
Howard B. Owens

I always thought a used fire truck would make an awesome mobile newsroom ... imagine The Batavian rolling up to a fire or accident scene in this! I could even carry a load of water in case the supply was short. :)

Jan 6, 2012, 5:03pm Permalink
Dave Olsen

Think about it. cold beer, roasted hog. Who wouldn't want to join our political party? We'd surely pass the "smell" test. And what fireman wouldn't want a pulled pork samich and a brewski after saving a life or a building or even a basement, they deserve it. I think we're on to somethin' here, boys

Jan 6, 2012, 7:04pm Permalink
Gabor Deutsch

In an extreme emergency the beer could be used to put out fires. I bet the number of volunteer firefighter applicants would definitely increase if we had an after fire tail gate party truck.

:P

Jan 6, 2012, 7:31pm Permalink
Jeff Allen

Part of the work is already done on the front Howard. Just peel off the comma, the "Y", and the period, slide over the "N" and scribble "the" above it.

Jan 6, 2012, 7:44pm Permalink
Daniel Neal

There are actually quite a few , off the top of my head i can name Pierce , Rescue 1 , E-One , Toyne , American LeFrance , Snorkel , 4 Guys and Rosenbauer. There are quite a few I cant remember either , I know there are a couple that build speciality wildland trucks also. Then ambulances is another completely separate list.

Jan 6, 2012, 10:36pm Permalink
Dave Meyer

Is this a case of want or need?

I'm sure the chief wants a new fire truck, but does he NEED one?

An article in the Daily last week stated that the truck could be repaired for $15K - $20K but the chief stated that was "cost prohibitive".
I guess I'd like to know why spending $400K on a new truck isn't "cost prohibitive".

I know when I have to have one of my cars repaired and it costs more than I had hoped, I always philosophize and say "it's cheaper than a car payment".

Seems to me that if (as is stated above) this engine is only used for multiple alarm fires (which thankfully are quite rare here), that the best option is to spend whatever it takes to repair the truck and save the $400K now.

Just because the money for this is there, doesn't mean it has to be spent.

Jan 7, 2012, 7:16am Permalink
Kyle Couchman

On it's surface Daniel your comment seems sensible but perhaps you missed these key parts in the article...

The city has been preparing for the retirement of Engine 14 and over the past four years has been able to set aside fire equipment reserves of $360,000.

So now we have reduced the expenditure from 400,000.00 to 40,000.00 and as far as repairing it you seemed to have overlooked this little bit of crucial info as well...

When Engine 14 was inspected by Churchville Fire Equipment, inspectors found 51 deficiencies with the truck. Most of them could be fixed at a cost of $15,000 but the engine would still not meet National Fire Protection Association standards.

So again tell me what the expenditure of 15,000.00 to fix it yet not have it even meet standards would acomplish?

Jan 7, 2012, 7:25am Permalink
Frank Bartholomew

If my house were on fire, I sure as hell would be pissed if the fire truck broke down on the way.
Get the new truck, public safety can't be compromised.

Jan 7, 2012, 10:33am Permalink
Daniel Neal

Dave , here is the problem , Fire Trucks have a lifespan , they do have to be periodically replaced , the usual operating life of a Fire Truck , especially a Pumper, is 20 years , after that 20 years most of the equipment on that truck no longer meets Federal standards for a Fire Service Vehicle. It is the same way with Fire Gear , it has to be periodically replaced to meet Federal Standards and maintain the safety of the Firefighters. With an old truck like this you never know what could happen next , sure it only needs $15,000 worth or repairs now , but what happens when the pump breaks , or the tank develops a crack , there is another $5-10,000 dollars and even more time spent laid up at the shop when at any moment it could be needed. And if I saw the picture correctly E14 is an Open back Cab truck , they are actually illegal now and the old ones are grandfathered in , but NFPA is starting to crack down on them.

Jan 7, 2012, 12:21pm Permalink
Kyle Couchman

So to Dave Myers question the answer is.... This is a case of need, like 4 yrs in the planning and anticipation of this need.

Not a want, like I'm the highest paid Economic Development Administrator and I want my bonuses and I want them rubbed in the noses.....(ahem) I mean publicized in the local news so people know how important I am.

Jan 7, 2012, 11:16am Permalink
Dave Meyer

Given that it has been clearly stated that this truck is used ONLY in a backup role or when there is a multiple alarm fire, I still propose that repairing it is a better investment for the city at this time. If they can get a few more years of service out of it that's a good thing.
You people must have short memories of the fiscal situation in the city. It's better, but it's still no bed of roses.

Again....just because the money is there, doesn't mean it has to be spent.

Oh and Kyle...the name is Dave (not Daniel) and what going this way would accomplish is saving money.

Jan 8, 2012, 2:22pm Permalink
Kyle Couchman

Maybe YOU want to rely on another news sources dubious facts but you are forgetting 2 things, I hate to repeat myself but repairing it isn't fiscally sound as this statement from the Fire Chief shows... "When Engine 14 was inspected by Churchville Fire Equipment, inspectors found 51 deficiencies with the truck. Most of them could be fixed at a cost of $15,000 but the engine would still not meet National Fire Protection Association standards.

Until a replacement engine is purchase, the city is using a loaner from the City of Rochester Fire Department.

So if we have to have a loaner from Roch til we have a replacement that meetss National fire protection standards then what money savings is accomplished?

And Dave? How do you figure that this truck is only used as a back up? Read the ststement from the article below once again...slowly.

The department has two other trucks -- Ladder 15 and Engine 12, which go out on almost all city calls. Engine 14 was used for multiple-alarm fires, or when one of the other engines was being repaired or going through preventive maintenance, or when the city's Fast Team was called to the scene of a fire elsewhere in Genesee County.

So your saying rely on there being no multiple alarm fires, or God forbid another fire somewhere in this city. As well as neglect having any maintenence work done on our exsisting equipment. Just because you want to save the city the costs. What does one persons life vs the cost of a truck gain you? Besides the endangerment of the rest of they city?

Jan 8, 2012, 4:29pm Permalink
Dave Meyer

Kyle,
First of all, please don't address me as though I'm 4 years old. I'm probably older than you are and I can read just fine. I read the initial article thoroughly and I understand the issue.
Secondly, I'm not going to get into a semantics battle with you over my use of the word 'backup'. I'm sure that you and other readers get the point.

This engine is the last one dispatched under any situation. Given that....given that it most likely sits idle most of the time, why not repair it - even if it costs more than what is estimated - and save the money for the future.

Now...do I think this is what's going to happen? Probably not. I expect the council will approve the purchase of something. I hope they don't but they probably will. I sincerely hope they don't approve the "caddilac" option of a purchase of a brand new truck. I'm sure that if the chief's wish is granted that the demo unit would be a less expensive option and would meet the needs of the city just fine.

Jan 8, 2012, 7:59pm Permalink
Charlie Mallow

The fund was created four years ago so that equipment purchases became planned expenses. The idea was that going forward there wasn't going to be surprises that increased the tax rate.

Jan 8, 2012, 8:42pm Permalink
Kyle Couchman

Well Dave your understanding of what you read is slightly flawed. It isnt the last engine dispatched in these situations, recently it HAS been dispatched last due to its age and unreliability but do you think the pumper truck isnt first out when theres a fire outside of hydrant lines of the city, or in other cases where a large quantity of water is needed. Your assumption is wrong as is your characterization of a cadillace option. But your right about one thing myself and the other readers do get your point. So we wont be asking you for a ride anywhere anytime soon, judging from your philosiphy on vehicle maintenence and repair.

Jan 8, 2012, 10:56pm Permalink

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