Council continues discusson on whether to sell Falleti Ice Arena

Dave Meyer is correct, the parks and ice arena have been the cities "fabric" for many years. There are many more months that they can be utilized than the ballpark.

I am not saying that baseball should come to a close but let's weigh out all the factors.

What's the driving factor behind considering the sale of the ice arena?

Chris,
Probably the city cost of major repairs. The city had to put about $600,000 into it and will never get that money back. And when the next repairs are due, where will the money come from to do it? Answer, city taxpayers only.

Rather than sell the ice rink, I like to see it converted into a Police Department building and sell the old police building.

Chris, it's a completely arbitrary decision that's being pushed by Bill Cox.
He apparently fancies himself the fiscal savior of the city and for some reason he's latched onto the Ice Arena. God forbid we would offer anything in terms of recreation to the city residents.

And John, where do you get your information? It's crap like that getting spread that keeps this fire against the Ice Arena burning.
Even if it's true, for one thing the construction of that building didn't cost the city a dime (unlike Dwyer stadium) and anything that's 30 years old is going to need some maintenance.
We buy new city trucks and police cars all the time. I don't hear you bitching about that!

Yeah...let's sell the Ice Arena, sell all the city parks, sell Dwyer stadium and while you're at it, why don't you roll up all the sidewalks too.

Good idea, John; Police Departments are incredible revenue machines. While you're at it... Convert the Mall (City Center) into a storage shed for road salt.

CM,
The odds of somebody buying a building that shares utilities and a wall with a Fire Department are slim.
Puting City services (Fire & Police)into one building is just good management. Some of the cost of renovation would be recovered by the sale of the current city owned building used by the police now.

And the revenue we get from the ice rink will just pay for the $100,000 Zamboni we bought for them, with maybe a little bit left over. It will never pay back the major repairs we needed a few years ago, or for major repairs that will come in the future.

But, if the people in the whole County were willing to pay a tax surcharge to the city for the rink, that would be ok with me.

Dave,
If it comes to new equipment for the police and fire departments or a new Zamboni or cooling system for the ice rink, I pick the Police and Fire Department.

You argument in phony if you compare public safety to public entertainment.

Personally I think the books on the ice rink need to opened and evaluated. There has to be a way that the rink can make money. If there isn't then no one is going to consider buying it. And instead of hiring an entire company to run it, why not hire one guy with experience to run it and allow him a budget to work with for what he needs. If its not profitable within 3-4 years (as in paying the debt down they we have in it now) then either find someone else or a buyer. I don't know, that just sounds sensible to me.

The ice rink is an asset to the community. It brings in outside money from tournaments and also hosts the Notre Dame and Batavia High hockey teams. I don't see conversion as an option.

Our City Council has been tripping over itself in order to tell us how Batavia is back in the black financially. So with no fiscal need, what's the point of this?

Chris,
If you paid closer attention, our Council said, yes we are in the black, but just barley. It also understands the upcoming expenses such as the pending police back pay ($600,000 or more), state mandated increases to the retirement fund, probable cuts in state aid, outstanding Workers Compensation liability and iffy sales tax receipts. To cover these pending increases, they have reserve funds, but will require either spending cuts or tax increases. Which do you recommend?

Chris, what about a non resident surcharge for individual usage? An example is the Town of Tonawanda. They have an aquatic center with a exercise room. Residents pay one fee and non residences pay more. Sounds fair to me.

The city needs something to anchor business. The ice rink is successful in drawing revenue to the city. With a little imagination and promotion, the ice rink could be linked to businesses that would expand on that base. The value of hockey to Batavia is proven. Why not attract a hockey outfitter or two into the community, establish mutually beneficial commercial agreements with the Sabres and Amerks to bolster camps and promotional appearances, support winter hockey events keyed to restaurant and club activities... Make Batavia "Hockey Town USA." Make Batavia the go-to place for hockey tournaments, supplies, fan accessories, ice skating, ice sculpture contests, winter brew beer tasting, a collectible meet in the Mall... I came up with that in two minutes; imagine if some professional had a week to work on ideas...

CM,
If your idea is good, then why couldn't a private company do it as well, or probably better, than the city?

This is not about the value or popularity of Hockey or Baseball. It is about what city residents can afford.

John, don't condescend to me. I think the people who read and post on this site know how much attention I pay to local government.

Selling a single building isn't a cure for upcoming expenses. Hell, considering the building in question, it's not even a band-aid.

John, you bumped up against a reality that I'm not sure a lot of folks truly appreciate: Sales Tax Revenue.

Municipalities during economic downturns have a lot of trouble holding the line on taxes because of diminished sales tax income. But iffy receipts on that front aren't an excuse to have a fire sale.

If this conversation is about which sports facilities the city can afford, then the objective eye would probably have to turn toward Dwyer Stadium.

Then again, there's not really any reason to have this discussion right now. Council must be bored.

Perhaps my feelings on the ice arena are skewed because I never use it, but, I don't think that the City should be the business of owning an ice arena. As John pointed out, over half a million dollars in repairs was spent and the city never recuperated the money.

The bottom line is this, the axe is about to fall in terms of state aid. Local governments are going to see deep cuts coming from the state regardless of who controls the State Senate, the money simply isn't going to be there. I see two valid options, sell the rink or, use it for another municipality and sell the space of the current municipality.

What business person is going to invest in a community that can't commit to its own properties? Maybe we should put Steve Hyde on it- the $60,000 bonus he received this year should inspire some action.

C.M. - What business is going to invest in a community that puts its fiscal future at risk with pie in the sky solutions?

Batavia needs to preserve public safety, get out of the water deal when it expires and try to keep the tax rate reasonable.

C.M. - I am also proud of the issues based campaign that you ran. No mudslinging, just a rational conversation about Genesee's future.

Chris,
I think Dwyer should be sold also, if possible and if the Muckdogs leave.

This idea that no one little cut will make a difference is what Frank Ferrando said to Rose Mary Christian years ago, just before we belly up and into debt.

We will either make what cuts can be made or raise taxes. Odds are we will have to do both.

But again, to help out the city, what about a nonresident surcharge for individual use? Easy question.

I thought the city set presidence a few months ago of giving away unwanted city buildings to Habitat For Humanity. I believe we now have to give this building away!

Are you going to check ID at the door John? Would the surcharge cover the salary? Is there really any purpose to asking pointless questions?

Whenever the issue of the rink comes up, I find myself wishing I could talk to Barber Conable about it.

"Make Batavia the go-to place for hockey tournaments, supplies, fan accessories......"

With the ESL Ice Arena Complex about 30 minutes to the East, that will never happen.

Chris,
When you go in to skate, you pay. You give your money to a person. And why not have a check? It works in other places, why not here? It may not bring in much, but why do you insist on the city taxpayers footing the whole bill for everyone?

I'm not insisting on anything John. I'm saying that this conversation is stupid.

Liquidation isn't a long term solution or even a short term one. Sell the rink, spend the cash, now what? Those expenses are still going to be there and until sales tax receipts start growing again there's no simple solution.

Chris,
True, no simple solution, but everything needs to be looked at. But this issue has been debated before.

I don't care if they sell it really, I'm just taking the position that there's no real benefit to be had.

John's hung up on the fact that people other than city residents use the arena.

Hmmmmm....let's see. I'll bet there are people who aren't city residents that shop in the mall. That's a city property. Should we check ID at the door?

Let's see...does anyone think that any "outsiders" have ever snuck into a city park and and let their kids use the swings?

How about those damn youth football kids? I'll be there are at least one or two that don't live in the city using OUR FIELDS at Lions Park.
I DEMAND THAT YOUTH FOOTBALL START CHECKING IDs.

Seriously John...your small mindedness blows me away.

John, this is where you and I break, I don't think that we should check ID's as long as it's a public owned facility.

Should it be a public owned ice arena? That is the question at hand in my mind.

Dan,
I just see other municipalities helping cut cost for the ones who have to pay the bill and wonder why it can not work here in Batavia.

This would be a great proposition to place on the ballot next November and with all 6 council ward positions up, it could be a great issue. Let's let the people who have to pay the taxes make the decision. Maybe we can get a council member to propose it?

Dave, you want the city taxpayer to foot the whole bill for an entertainment facility for everyone in the county, I don't. And your refusal to even look at helping the taxpayer is just stubborn.

John,

So you would rather put about 500 + people from skating, ice hockey, figure skating recreational activity, sports etc. and have them on the streets and utilizing the tax payers dollars to combat drugs, alcohol other activity instead?

We would defiantly keep the police dept busy and also drive the attraction of people from out of town like Canada, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse etc. to spend their money in hotels, and Local businesses just to save you tax dollars.

The 600,000 is not going to be sent directly to your house but maybe you feel it does?

If this comes down to spending this kind of money either way what plans do you have to spend the money on? What better way than to support the YOUTH in Batavia before there is NOTHING to offer to them and people just will continue to move OUT of the area and then YOUR taxes will go up even more !

S.,
Tell me why a private owner can not do as well, if not better, than the city owning the rink?

Why do you think only the government can run an ice rink in this city?

John,

What would keep that private company from selling the property two years later to someone like Tom Lewin. Then the property falls into disrepair and becomes and eyesore?
Then it cost the City more money to go after the private business in court to enforce code violations.

In regard to your suggestion of charging an admission fee, well I think your on to something there. Why not put check points up on every road entering the city and charge an admission fee to enter the city? That way taxpayers wouldn't have to foot the bill for upkeep of the roads. We could charge the outsiders that come here and cause us to perform maintenance on city owned property.

Peter,

Hiring a single person with expertise to run the rink?
Well they can't work there the whole entire time it is open so that "single" person would have to hire other people to help him run the rink and then voila it is a company managing the rink instead of the "single" person to run it.

I like C.M.'s direction of thought. Why don't we all try to come up with some realistic ideas that could help to generate money with the rink?
The ESL Ice Arena (which by the way is no longer called that) is on shaky financial grounds due to poor management of the facility. So the Ice Rink in Batavia could be the venue to fill the gap when the former ESL Arena closes.

It looks like Mr. Cox is developing a pattern of wanting to take away recreational opportunity from our youth and young adults.

BTW Howard, your clock is off.

thanks for your comments Chris.In addition to quality of life, and giving school age children recreational opportunities (as well as adults), there is another point. Besides tournaments, every team has home games where the stands and the parking lot are full. Those spectators spend money here - as do the teams that come from out of town.
Also please allow me to to add more light on this issue. My team, for example, has kids from Bliss, Silver Springs, Corfu, Albion, Oakfield, and Elba. I have had many players from Erie and Monroe counties. Those parents don't stay and watch their kids practice - they go out and shop or eat here.
Our conference has teams from Webster, Perinton, Canandaigua, Rochester, Monroe County, Geneseo, and Brockport. Those parents spend money here after a game.
The rink produces plenty of tax revenue - it is just a matter of their spending money here because there is an ice arena. Thanks, Tom.

Mark - I don't think that's Bill's intention. Neither is it mine. What Bill sees is what I see, that the axe is going to fall in terms of state aide. Which party controls the Senate is irrelevant, by law the state budget has to be balanced (states cannot engage in deficit spending like the feds) and the only way to do this is through tax increases, borrowing and spending cuts. I think that we are going to see across the board spending cuts that will probably end up affecting state aide to local municipalities.

That all being said, what would we rather cut? When push comes to shove, I would much rather see us not have ownership of an ice rink than have taxpayers and renters feel the sting of a higher tax burden, which also means higher rent for renters, because of repairs that need to be made to both. I would also much rather see increasing recreation through parks, public concerts and other community based activities (festivals and parades) that may end up reaching more people with less cost.

I also do not think that a private owner for the ice arena will be the end of organized hockey in Batavia.

Jeremiah,
The rink is owned by the city, but run by a private company now, with a small fee paid the city that does not cover costs of keeping it. Why not sell it to them? If they run it, they can own it.

And I ask you the same question, why can government operate a building better than a private owner?

And Jeremiah, why can other municipalities charge non resident fees and make it work, but you don't think it can work here? Why is that?

When your taxes go up, you will demand cuts be made and people be laid off. But cuts can never be made to somebody's favorite cause or sport. Where do you suggest the money come from? It would be great if the economy was good and sales taxes were rolling in, but it is not and not likely to for awhile. So where does the money come from?

Hey everyone....just a few comments as I watch this. I lived in a town in my 20's that did just this. After about 10 yrs they regretted it for just some of the reasons pointed out in here. With no recreational options some businesses lost enough customers to close. The youth without recreational opportunities went to more delinquent activivties, not out of desire to be bad but just out of boredom.

The sports complex (not a rink but did have a rink in it during off seasons.) went under private ownership, became selective and put itself out of business. So privitization <sp> isnt always an answer.

Personally I see our council wasting alot of money and time on stupid issues. How much again was spent on cleaning up white marks on the city/mall building because of improper windows being installed. With unemployment in this area a few people could have been hired to clean these at a much lower cost.

Recreational opportunities have been recognized constantly in villages, towns and cities since the time of the romans, wonder why that is, and why we think we should just do away with it.

IMHO we should look at Gov't misuse of public funds and not running the place as fiscally responsible as a private corp would, when we make this distinction we are ignoring the obvious elephant in the room. The system is broke and we the people need to fix it.

Im not as good at math as say, Stephen Hawkins, but it seems simple to me......

PEOPLE come to Batavia to utilize the Ice Rink and parks and what not. While they are here they also spend money at various local businesses. That generates sales taxes collected by the city. Those sales taxes collected go to fund many budget items to include the Ice Rink. That John is where the money is going to come from.

Jeremiah,
That money is already there. A private company manages the rink, right? What would be wrong selling them (if they wanted it) the building they manage? What would change if Hockey is that popular?

This is not about hockey, baseball, football or sports, it's about how much the tax payer will have to pay and how much they can afford in order to stay here. What would you cut?

And the money to fix up the ice rink had to be borrowed, the ice rink payments do not cover that loan. We have to use sales tax revenue and property taxes to pay off that loan instead of fixing sidewalks or replacing public safety equipment. Again, where would you cut?

What loan? I was under the impression as per someone mentioning it here on The Batavian that the rink was paid for by grant money.

What I'm getting at about selling it to a private entity is that they can turn around and sell it. It could end up in the hands of some one like Tom Lewin. He is the fine business man that owns the property in the middle of the city that was formerly Latinas. That is my concern.

John,

2 comments about charging non residents more than residents.

1 if you look at the local people that use the rink, how many of them are to young to have a driver's license. what will the city do then, force them to buy non-driver ID cards so the can have proof of address? how will they show city resident/non resident?

2 looking at the tournaments etc that its been discussed above pump money into the rest of th economy. if you are charging more at the gate, how many people wont come, wont spend the money local on other things that drives sales tax and local businesses.

looking back at the previous article about selling the rink, it says (to summarize) that if the contract is renewed, in the next 11 years the city will be paid 400k from the management company, which will cover the dept owed. that works out to be payments of 36k per year. how much is the rink debt costing the city on a annual basis? if its say (picking a random number) 40k, then the city is paying 4k per year to provide the rink, how much does it cost in city worker pay, equipment upkeep etc to keep one park mowed? (which has no admission cost and if free for everyone to use)

yes John the city owes about 400k (including 75k on the Zamboni) but to sum it up, if the money the management co is paying the city covers the city's annual payments on the rink repairs all we really did was get them the loan and are letting them pay it for us. to get a true cost comparison we need to talk about not only how much the city spends but also how much they receive.

now to talk about the tax portion of the sale, i'm sure that in order for the City to get what they need to break even on the sale (between debt and utility separations) they will be doing a deal on the tax rate anyways.

kids need something to do otherwise they will get into trouble. its cheaper to educate(or in this case entertain) kids than to have them go through the legal system.

ok thats a long enough post...

Bill,
This non resident fee for individual use works in other areas. You seem to be another one that thinks Batavia can never be as smart as others, but I think we are as smart as them. You can use student ID or even a report card for young kids. The idea is to at least try and help the city taxpayer. Why are you against even trying?

And the money the rink pays the city does not pay the loan for repairs. City taxpayers eat that debt for the whole county and none are willing to help us out. And as for the phony parks argument, we don't have to take out $600k loans to keep them open.

My only point is, when our city tax bill goes up, you living in Bergen will sit back and say, "that's too bad, they should make cuts". And we pay.

Jeremiah,
A former Councilman cleared up that no federal grant money built the ice rink/fire hall. But even if it did, the $600K bond was taken out about 4-5 years ago for major repairs, that was 100% city taxpayer money. The repairs and upgrades will come up again due to the nature of ice rinks (cooling systems and such).

Try to get this right, this is not about any sport, I just can not see us taxing people more than needed so they can stay here. An ice rink with no kids living here is not my idea of good planning.

Let's just say we don't agree on taxes and leave it at that.

John

ok then there is a solution for checking residency. would you charge more only for things like open skate, playing on a team, or would you charge more for admission to the guest team than the home team?

how much does the city pay per year on those loans? Since I didn't have the numbers I just guessed, however a 15 year bond for 600k would be 40k per year in payments without any interest added, i'm not good enough at math (nor do I know the rate) to calculate it otherwise.

and your right, I don't live in the city. I grew up in the Town of Batavia, lived there most of my life until 2 years ago.

Bill,
Personally, I'd only charge non residence more for individual use, like open skate.

Plenty of housing for sale here in the city; wish you had moved here to help us pay for everything. We could use your money.

Does anyone out there know how the building that houses the rink and the fire dept was funded? I'm curious now. Who knows for sure?

Jeremiah,
Send an email to Jason at City Hall. From what I remember, it was bonded (borrowed) when the old building was no longer suitable.