I think it is distasteful, inappropriate, and offensive to those who lost loved ones there, however freedom of religious expression is foundational to our country and must be defended. I wish the builders of the mosque used better judgement, however with true freedom comes not only your ability to express yourself, but the responsibility to defend that freedom for those with whom you disagree.
Does anyone know who actually owns the land the mosque would be built on? My money is on a foreigner, so opinions won't matter in the end anyways.
My personal opinion is that a meditation garden would suffice for ANY religion.
Lorie, the guy on TV the other morning explained that it isn't a mosque but a community center. He hoped that would be a center where those who lost loved ones could come and be with those who mourn with them.
There is hope that there could be understanding between those who suffered a loss and those who are blamed by association.
jeff what i mean is the intolerance in this "free" country is what leads to these terrorist attacks. whats the difference between a mosque and a Jewish temple or a catholic church. i hope everybody whose is against this would be against that too or are you just hypocritical bastards
The official death toll for the 9/11 attack on New York is 2,751. Who knows the religious affiliations of those dead. Pentacostal or Pagan, it doesn't matter to anyone who will visit ground zero to pay homage to innocent lives lost. It is no one's business to guess. The politicians and religious pragmatists who view an Islamic Center at ground zero as a conciliatory gesture are inventing a martyr who does not exist. A simple marker with all the names of the dead, thank you, will suffice. There is no call to turn hallowed ground into an ideological battle ground.
What about the Constitution? What if the soldiers in Iraq want to build a Christian Church? Is that inappropriate too? It sure as hell is, but I'll bet few believe it is.
Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom for your religion only. Frankly, it's all a bad joke anyway.
Its also worth pointing out that the location of the proposed mosque and community center is a full 2 blocks away from the actual WTC site. It's not like they're planning to put this at the WTC itself. Perhaps we need an official designation of where the "hallowed ground" begins and ends...
First (1st) Jason, I don't think a Christian Church would have as much opposition in Iraq as a potential Mosque has here. Second (2nd) Jason, the official designation for some, is anywhere. All religions are nonsense anyway, just try to live a decent life and treat everyone like a family member. That's all any religion strives for, it's the Jesus leeches that have perverted it into a social, political and economically divisive entity that was never meant to be. That's my view from the left. I like it better than what I see from the right. Maybe I'm not old and jaded enough yet, I hope I never am.
When I lived in San Diego I got to know quite a few Chaldeans (Christians from Iraq). They were quite entrepreneurial and owned a lot of businesses, providing jobs for members of their own community (mostly liquor and convenience stores).
At the time, El Cajon had the second largest Chaldean community in the U.S., second only to Detroit.
I had the pleasure of lunch at their members-only social club once.
As a free-lance writer, I did a cover story for the San Diego Business Journal on this community of entrepreneurs.
The picture on the cover was of three small business owners in front of one of their stores -- the largest grocery store in Ocean Beach.
Now keep in mind, this was two or three years before 9/11.
The publisher was deluged with angry e-mails and phone calls about from readers and the publishers friends who were upset that his paper would put Iranians/Muslims on the cover of a special section.
Siding with the complainers, the Publisher threatened to fire one of the editors over it -- who eventually did quit over the incident -- and when word of that leaked out, the whole thing became a bigger controversial mess.
It irritated the hell out of me because these were local Christian businessmen who were doing a lot for both their close-knit community and the community as a whole. They didn't deserve to be dragged through the mud like that just because they participated in that story.
Jason, you said that " intolerance in this "free" country is what leads to these terrorist attacks". That is not true. What lead to these attacks is a strict adherence to the jihadist point of view of Islam. Our guilt is not our intolerence, our guilt is our free expression of our faith(infidels to them), our wealth, and our prosperity.
My own feelings on this issue are, some fanatical wing of a religion started a war with our country, or jihad as they call it. To me it means the same as the attack on Pearl Harbor. You don't see a statue of Hirohito any where on the island do you. Look at what happened to the Japanese Americans after the attack. Regardless of what type of Islam was responsible for 9/11, it is my opinion that no mosque be put any where near that site. I for one would sacrifice all religous rights if it helped to prevent another attack. I know you shouldn't blame all muslims for the actions of some, but realisticly, many of the 9/11 terrorist were Saudis, so that in itself demonstrates to me anyway, you let our gaurd down when it comes to muslims, it will cost dearly. If I had my way, I would outlaw that religion in this country, and if you don't like it , move to Mecca. While we're at it, why don't we build a Nazi shrine at Normandy
Jason asked why his post to Frank was deleted. His query was posted twice, I deleted the duplicate but somehow both got deleted. Sorry, Jason Murray.
Anyway, you asked why your post was deleted and it is simply because you launched into a personal attack, which is not allowed. You can preach, cajole, annoy, bemuse, inform, etc., but you must stick to ideas, positions, facts, opinions - in other words don't call people names and get personal with your temper.
ok lets try this
i was upset because in my own personal opinion i feel franks comment was racist. im not saying he is racist but that comment was. funny you dont think his post was a personal attack. im sure a muslim would think its pretty personal. how about i post this at a nearby islamic center and we get there opinion on it or even better yet how about "build bridges between cultures" the global education committee at genesee community college. im sure they would love it. see this is the type of intolerance i was talking about in my first post
hope that better in now way did i attack anybody just stated my idea, position, and opinion
I'm just getting here, so I didn't see anything of Jason's, but somebody's going to have to explain to me why Frank's 'move to Mecca' post is still up. Bigoted doesn't even begin to describe what's going on in that diatribe.
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Chris, there's no rule against bigoted.
While I can imagine -- though I won't state the words -- statements insulting other races or religions, Frank's statement doesn't rise to that level of offense in my mind.
If Frank wants to be associated with that expression of belief, then that's his choice.
We delete posts for insulting individuals, especially other members of the site, and otherwise private individuals (people in the public eye need to have a little thicker skin).
Frank may be expressing a rather narrow minded view toward religion, but he isn't attacking individuals.
His view is as much political as it is cultural. Should I disallow all political views I find distasteful?
I'd also take issue with the idea that what Frank said is racist.
Islam is not a race. It's a religion.
Religion is a choice. You can choose to be a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddist or even Jewish. You can't choose to be black or Native American or a Jew. Outright racism is something we won't tolerate, but it gets a lot more murky when discussing a matter of religious choice.
I see Frank statement more as something to argue against rather than pretend such views don't exist.
I almost put up the Patrick Henry quote as soon as I saw his post. It was the first thing that popped into my mind. In hindsight, wish I had. It might have changed the tone of the subsequent posts. When people make statements like his, it can equally be seen as an opportunity to respond with a reasoned response in favor of liberty and freedom, rather then pretending such views don't exist.
I find it frightening that there are people who argue that some religions shouldn't be tolerated, or that maybe our press is just a little too free, or some political views shouldn't be tolerated. The threat to freedom of such attitudes is much more dangerous if we ignore them or pretend they don't matter or just look the other way. It's better to let them hang out there and make a reasoned argument against them and remind people how important freedom is.
Of course, all of these sorts of issues are judgment calls. Others may disagree with my decision(s), and I may not always be consistent or right (being human), but that's my view, and like it or not, I trust that answers your question, Chris.
Chris, it was all opinioned based, get over it. I can't wait to hear what some of you will say when the Iranians share one of their nukes with this "religion" and they take out a large metro area. I don't give a damn what our writers of the constitution said, there is no freedom in fear.As far as I'm concerned, if the Israelis don't take out the Iranian nuke sites, there is certain to be an attack, maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen, and just like 9/11, everyone is going to be all up in arms as to why our government let this happen, we are the government,and God forbid this ever happens, but if it does,will all who label me a bigot, be willing to maintain that position in an open forum? And you can post my comment any where you like Jason, I don't agree with any religion that claims me to an infidel because I disagree with their beleifs.If that is bigotry,then I plead guilty as charged.
The fanatical wing of this religion wants to see dead Americans. Can you identify which ones they are? They call Americans the great satan. If these people exist in this country, they should be charged with treason and put to death if found guilty. In this country they at least would be afforded rights, the victims of 9/11 never got that chance. And again,in my opinion, building a mosque anywhere near that site would be rubbing the victims families noses in it. Lets build a U.S.nucular warhead factory in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. What on earth would ever posess anyone to even consider this. I can hear Bin Ladens laughter from here.
This just in from somewhere in the mountains of Pakistan.
One fanactical muslim says to another, What do Americans do after we murder almost 3,000 of their people,fanactical muslim #2; I don't know,what do they do? they build a mosque right next door,hahahahahahahahah
John, ever hear of the Inquisition?
Or when they burned "witches" at the stake in Salem?
Remember the bombings of abortion clinics?
No religion is immune from its fanatics. That's precisely why the Founders insisted on religion freedom, to protect us from the fanatics taking over.
The minute we deny religion freedom to Muslims, we become just like Bin Laden.
All I'm saying is that if we don't watch our backs, and as uncomfortable as we may feel about what methods may need to be employed to protect our nation, it should be considered. Just remember the immediate reaction after 9/11, many were blaming the govt. how did they let this happen and so on. Now that some time has passed, everyone wants to extend olive branches. These people want us dead, they hate all we stand for. Are you or anyone else criticizing me for feeling the same way towards them. I didn't attack and murder, nor did I support any group that attacked and murdered thousands of innocent people, they did this,so my hatred of them is just a little more justifiable than there hatred of my being an American. I am speaking of the radical extremist, but again, I ask, can you identify who is who.
Let me put it this way, when I offer an olive branch in one hand, I damn sure want a shotgun in the other, kinda like to error on the side of caution. If these people are left unchecked, their next act may make 9/11 look like a fender bender. If fire isn't fought with fire, only one gets burned, I would prefer it not be me.
Howard, when your dead you don't stand for anything., I don't agree with the sitting duck attitude. Do you honestly believe the constitution would contain the same context now,as when it was written, our forefathers lived in a much simpler, less complex world. And whether anyone likes it or not, all things must change to accomendate new environments. None of us greet change with open arms, but these people hate us with a passion, and thier goal is to kill as many of us as they can. They use our open society as a tool, if we all want to sit back and qoute 200 year old analgies, it won't be long, they will be back, and they will be back with a much more devastating act than 9/11, and the last thing I ever want to say is I told you so. I'm sorry, but that is how I feel, and in no way was it my intention to offend anyone, but I like to take a proactive approach, rather than sit back and get killed with all my rights intact. It would be much like dying with a million dollars in your pocket.
Frank, I absolutely believe with 100-percent certainty that if the Founders knew of this world as it is now, they'd write the same Constitution and the same Bill of Rights. As the Declaration of Independence says, our rights are unalienable. Our rights are not granted by a piece of paper. They are granted and governed by a higher power. They are immutable. They don't change with the whims of the times.
frank your saying all muslims are terrorists. just because the terrorists happen to be muslims doesnt make all muslims terrorists. how many Christians are in jail does that make all Christians criminals if so in your opinion they should all be locked up just for your safety
The term(s) I used were either,fanatical wing, radical or extremists, are these the people you are speaking for? Jason the only point I am trying to make is this, I can't tell which brand I,m looking at,can you? and what is your point by your non stop comparison with Christians? I don't favor one religion, but as I stated earlier, just because I don't agree with anothers faith,it does not make me an infidel, and in my opinion that belief in itself speaks volumes for this religion.
If these radicals are left unchecked, they will strike again, and when they do, as happened after 9/11, many will blame the govt. for not protecting them. You can't have it both ways. And getting back to the point, it would be a slap in the face of victims families to build a mosque anywhere near that site. That is my opinion,and further, I beleive I answered an opinion poll question.
frank your not getting my point your grouping all muslims together cuz you cant tell them apart but you can tell Christians apart how about the radical christian extremest arrested in march for planning an attack with weapons of mass destruction
"If these radicals are left unchecked, they will strike again" sorry frank i used your words there.
so like i said in your eyes lets get rid of all of them cuz frank cant tell them apart
You say our rights are gaurenteed by the Bill of Rights, The Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution.That may be the case for some, but I am here to say, not for all. And when one challenges their loss of rights, well you will take one hell of beating attempting to prove it.If you don't have the financial resources, your rights will diminish before your very eyes.So,if I appear to be a bigot, or narrow minded, lets just say our system had a lot to do with it.My rights are only gaurenteed if I can afford the cost to fight back, and yet I committed no crime. So to all who think you have all these rights I say this, only if you can afford to keep them. Several years ago, I would have stood side by side with you, but then found out the hard way that I didn't have the resources to fight and regain my so called gaurenteed rights.Someone stold a piece of my pie, and as stated earlier, I have to find a way to protect the rest.
Take a reading comprehension course,I don't hold any religion to be my favorite, I disagree with a religion that says I am any less of a human being for not agreeing with their beliefs. Again Jason, I beleive I used the term fanatical,radical, and extremist, the last time I checked, it was this group who crashed airliners into buildings on American soil, that has been proven, and not alleged, are you anti-Christian, or do you think I'm a bible thumper?
am not anti christian or think your a bible thumper as a matter of fact im not anti anything. every person has a right to believe anything they want to regardless of financial backgrounds. so its bs that you have to afford your rights. you have the right to talk the nonsense you are and its completely free. and with proven not alleged. frank it was stopped b4 it could happen. take a look at that groups website i dont think christ wanted his word spread with bullets and last time i checked church attire did not involve camo and an ak-47. but i do love how your defending them with the innocent until proven guilty routine. shouldnt you afford the same to all of the muslims in the us.
oh and my reading comp is just fine, yes you did use those terms but u also said since you cant tell the difference between them they should all be treated as such so why cant you hold christians up to your standards
lets try this,when the police arrive on scene during the commission of a criminal act, such as a bank robbery, hostage taking,etc.etc. They do not take a poll to determine who is who,everyone hits the floor, victims, bystander,perps, and they stay that way until the police can determine who is who. I don't know if those victims or bystanders are going to scream about their rights being violated, because in the end, they were protected from being harmed,that is my point, safety first, sort the details later....
Frank, the rights remain, established in the Constitution and guaranteed to all United States citizens and- by claim of the Declaration of Independence, asserted for ALL mankind.
Any person or law that whittles away at those ordained rights must be judged by the courts. As Howard points out, politicians have redefined basic rights in context of national security and corporate usurpation of human rights. We can all weigh-in as to significance or lack of significance of such abridgment, but our basic rights were attested to by 39 delegates who met in Philadelphia on September 17, 1787 as part of the Constitutional Convention (add the signature of the convention secretary in witness). In the course of 200+ years we have amended the Constitution seventeen times. Twice to change our minds about alcohol consumption. The last in 1992 to protect the paychecks of members of Congress- go figure!
Alcohol may lend itself to befuddlement, but we cannot be so casual as to rights of press, privacy, religion, due process, speech or search- the ten original amendments, collectively known as the Bill of Rights. Those are worth dying for.
frank your making my point those Christian extremist groups are terrorist. they were going to kill a cop so more cops would show up at the funeral so they could blow them up. you want to get rid of muslims but you have no problem with these guys in your backyard. thats completely hypocritical
nice try frank your the one that said ALL muslims should be outlawed and sent back to mecca. you grouped them all together. i was showing you how wrong your logic is by using another religion which you have no problem with
There you go again Jason,I said if I had my way, that religion would be outlawed. Please learn how to comprehend. That religion I am refering to is radical Islam, but nice try at putting words in my mouth.
Frank, your original comment is quite clear -- you would like to see Islam outlawed. You didn't quality it in your original comment with "radical Islam." You said Islam. That's what this whole conversation has been about.
The link was for Mr.Barons, in reference to gaurenteed rights, the constitution, and the bill of rights. I had stated earlier that some of us don't have those guarenteed rights if we don't have the resources, so it kinda nullifies the term gaurenteed.
when is it that anyone thinks I would " have my way" its a damn opinion, and throughout this entire conversation I believe my references were, fanatical,extremist,radical, and further, I believe I opened using the term jihad, now if any Muslims are offended because I disagree with their views,and if they practice hatred through the guise of religion by subscribing to those brands of Islam, then I damn sure hope I did offend them. There you go Jason, lets see how you can twist up this post.
The fact that indigent persons can get free legal help at all shows us a lot. And legal representation for serious crimes is a right given by the courts. It is not stated explicitly in the Constitution and was not the law of the land until the 1960's. On top of that, free legal help at the expense of taxpayers is not absolute. You don't get it for civil cases or violations.
I stand corrected,in the heat of my emotions , I DID FAIL TO CLARIFY, and can't expect anyone to assume, but I did mention it was my opinion, And by the way John, my story has to do with the continued civil rights violations against a handicapped person, so save your speech, In my case, a victim is being prosecuted like a criminal, despite no criminal activity,or charges, and despite the instigating party being found negligent. If you read and understand that report, I think free legal help is a stretch at describing those services, but many judges will not allow pro se defense.
Frank, stating it's "your opinion" doesn't get you off the hook. Opinions often have consequences. If enough people shared your opinion then maybe there would be an attempt to outlaw Islam, which would be odious and offensive to the very principles of a free country.
And no consequences for a religion which teaches that all who disagree with their beleifs are infidels. The ACLU is shredding symbols of this countries beliefs, and principles of the basics this country was founded on, but that's ok, just don't say any thing bad about someone who thinks you are a lesser man because you have philosophical differences. SOUNDS FAIR TO ME?????
I'm not talking about anywhere except U.S. soil.And the term God,at best is vague, as most religions have a God figure,or supreme leader. You will never convince me to accept that I am an infidel because I disagree with a piece of said religions fundamentals. The last time I checked, there was only one religions followers belonging to and beleiving in one certain religion, that say, and have said,and continue to say, they want to destroy America,and murder as many Americans as possible.Please give me an example of any other group belonging to any other religion who so state the same. Again,I realize this is not the view of all followers of that faith, but in my world, one of these fanatical, extremists in my backyard is to many. And by the way, I had thought I was answering a question raised by an opinion poll. Look at all the debate this question brought about, my compassion for the families of those murder victims led me to believe a mosque anywhere near that site, regardless of intention will stir up hatred on both sides of the fence, and I don't feel a need
to revisit the emotions of 9/11. Lets poll the victims families and see if their response is favorable.
ok frank lets talk U.S. soil. how many native americans were slaughtered because they refused Christianity. oh and by the way lets look up what infedel actually means shall we
Infidel (literally "one without faith") is a chiefly archaic English noun, meaning one who doubts or rejects the central tenets of a religion other than one's own or has no religious beliefs; especially in reference to Christianity or Islam.
Infidel is an ecclesiastical term in Christianity around which the Church developed a body of theology that deals with the concept of infidelity; which makes a clear differentiation between those who were baptized and followed the teachings of the Church vs. those who are outside the faith. The term infidel was used by Christians to describe non-Christians or those perceived as the enemies of Christianity, especially to designate monotheists (Muslims) who do not subscribe to the Judeo-Christian concept of God, and thus differs from heathen or pagan.
wait did that just say its a christian term for muslims.
try doing research on a term before you use it in every one of your posts
This is the USA, sought and founded to avoid religious persecution in 16th and 17th century England. A basic tenet of our existence is freedom of religion. Not just Christianity, or Judaism, but ALL religions.
So the answer is easy, allow God fearing, peaceful, legal US citizens to open any center of faith they wish, anywhere they wish.
My real issue with this is another not for profit taking up real estate tax free.
We need to stop living in fear, as that is no way to live.As for what some overzealous, radical jihadist thinks about it, who gives a rats ass.
Bud, You ask who gives a rats ass,I do, I find it unacceptable to neighbor with anyone afilliated with any religion that has those philosophies. And Jason, the Native Americans were slaughtered so we could steal thier land, stop blaming every thing on Christianity, as I stated long ago, I have no particular favorite religion.The radical elements of Islam are all over the world teaching this evil,bile,murderous hatred of America, its way of life, its freedoms, and all we stand for.Again Jason,the last time I checked, they were the only religious faction making such threats to our way of life.As I also stated earlier, the fanatical wing of Islam proudly accepted resposibilty for murdering almost 3,000 American Citizens on American soil, whose only crime was going to work that day. Another point I will make is this, not all of us are so naive as to not understand the infidel, as it is written, and the final determination as to what measures should be taken against those who do not believe. I know of no Christian who has made any claim against me, or professes to hate me, or want me dead simply because I am an American.
Posted by Frank Bartholomew on July 23, 2010 - 9:20pm
This just in from somewhere in the mountains of Pakistan.
One fanactical muslim says to another, What do Americans do after we murder almost 3,000 of their people,fanactical muslim #2; I don't know,what do they do? they build a mosque right next door,hahahahahahahahah
That is why I stated I don't give a rats ass. I am fully aware that a MINORITY of Islam followers want to harm America. Nothing we do or say is going to change that. As a matter of fact, I would venture to guess that a MAJORITY of the Islam world would view it as a sign of peace and harmony.
Just as I am a Christian, I in no way identify with or condone Westboro Baptist Church and their actions. I think worldwide it holds the same for Islam, small fanatical groups don't dictate the majority.
Bud, I don't want my family or any other American, murdered for being an American, is that wrong? And as I also posted earlier, if Iran becomes in possession of nukes, the fanatics will also be nuke capable, as we are all aware of Iranian interests.And just like the Islamic religion, I'm sure not all Iranians agree with the rogue dictatorship, but as long as that regime holds power, we have something that is a real possibilty to fear. If anyone has the wait and see attitude, thats fine with me, whatever floats your boat, but don't get upset with me because I see this as a threat to our freedom to exist as a people because we don't measure up to their religious standards. And as posted earlier, this is the only group who actively state their intentions to destroy the American way of life, and murder as many of its people as possible. I,m sorry, but that is what we are dealing with, I don't recall asking for it.Jason can attempt to sugar coat all he wants, but the fact is we are in real and present danger, and I will not simply stick my head up my butt and try to hope this situation away.
so frank you believe we are in clear and present danger and your not going to stick your head up your butt and hope it away. so let me ask you this what specifically are YOU doing to change this. what actions are you taking on a daily basis besides sitting at your computer spouting your hatred. im sure we all want to know how you frank have taken your head out of your butt to help all of us infedels
Here is a point I did not want to bring up, but reluctantly, feel the need. I don't believe all members of the populations of Hiroshima, or Nagasaki agreed with the emporers philosophies,but were killed along side those who did. I can't begin to imagine what it took for our leaders to make and implement such a decision. I beleive one contributing factor was the beleif that many more lives would be saved,in comparison to the massive loss of life, and the suffering of all the victims of this devastating decision. Collateral losses are an accepted consequence of war. and like it or not, we will again be faced with similiar decisions, I just pray those in power have bone, not jelly, for a backbone when that decision has to be made. There will never be an apeasement with the fanatic extremist radical faction of Islam, and whether or not anyone likes my opinions, at least I let my leaders know how I feel, and that I expect them to protect me,my way of life, and the American people against any and all who seek to destroy it. If this opinion makes me a bigot, tough bananas, if my opinion offends anyone,tough sh#t.
whatever howard i wasnt trying to bait anyone just stating facts. in billi's own words this is whats allowed "You can preach, cajole, annoy, bemuse, inform, etc., but you must stick to ideas, positions, facts, opinions. my comment didnt attack anybody. it just seems like your covering for and hiding what frank said
Jason I have to ask where you are getting your information from on Islam. The religion actually does subscribe to the Judeo-Christian concept of God. It is the prophets of the Judeo-Christian establishment that they deny. In Islam there is only one prophet.