They pay county taxes on their property....Thats how the law enforcement is paid for...Consolidation will not pass in the town , with talk of this new tax for the businesses that choose to locate in the town.Do you think they should only tax the retail Big Box Stores..There are alot of independent businesses in the town .Do you what to tax them also..Nothing stopping those city businesses from relocating in the town if they want to get out of the taxes they pay..Maybe the real problem is the city tax..

And also i doubt that they have lower prices just because they don't pay a town property tax..Its more about the location the town offers these business plus the land need to build these stores..The city has the Mall ...What is the city doing to get these business to locate in the City..

Did Walmart steal your candy as a kid? Pick you last in kickball? I mean, geez, your ceaseless attacks on big box stores are just so over the top. Give it up might as well just punt on third down and invest in Walmart stock like Buffet did...if you can't beat em join em.

Funny, Richard.

Mark, the whole point is to KEEP business and grow business in the city's core, where it is most vital to community health.

Good point on the county tax, but they're still getting a break not enjoyed by competitors. You're suggestion on moving doesn't make sense, though -- why should a business go to all that expense and risk losing business for any number of the possible pitfalls that go with relocating merely because national chains -- which have already received billions in taxpayer subsidies across the nation -- are avoiding taxes by virtue of being located in the Town of Batavia.

And to your last point, we DON'T want these businesses locating in the city -- they drive out the more economically and socially advantageous locally owned businesses.

Here we go again, giving only a very jaded view of the whole picture. Yes these and other busineses and homes pay county tax for protection, fire tax for fire safety and school tax to educate both town and CITY youths.
So they do not pay a "town" tax like the city property owners pay a "city" tax.

If anything the businesses that located in the town subsidize the city residents for school and county services. They certainly subsidize the town residents for fire protection and I greatly appreciate that. The businesses and other property owners pay for what they use in the town - we just don't have the "big city" luxuries, and don't really need them.

As for the unfair advantages the "big box" stores have - I purchase goods whenever I can locally in the community - I may go to other towns in the county to buy or to the City of Batavia. I, like all other consumers shop for price, if two stores offer the same widget but the chain store is cheaper - guess what happens. I will shop for service when I want service but other than that, the rule is the all mighty dollar, not so much location.

Small businesses find a niche that they do better than everyone else. If they can not adapt and find the niche they will fail. It does not matter if the competition is a big box store or another mom and pop store or even the taxes. The same rule can apply to governments.

By the sounds of this article it is as if the writer wants everyone to pay what he pays in taxes, even if everyone does not get or desire the same level of service.

Paul wrote, "I may go to other towns in the county to buy or to the City of Batavia. I, like all other consumers shop for price, if two stores offer the same widget but the chain store is cheaper - guess what happens. I will shop for service when I want service but other than that, the rule is the all mighty dollar, not so much location."

And that sums up one of the attitudes that has changed in America in the past 50 years or so. There wasn't a time when Americans saw themselves as consumers first and community members second.

The dollar isn't always the most important thing in life. If it were, I wouldn't be here.

As for the last remark by Paul -- I'm a hardcore capitalist. I believe in the free market. But the free market only works the way it should when the earning potential of all is protected -- when one class of businesses is given special privilege by the government, as big boxes have been given time again over the past few decades, then capitalism isn't working the way it should.

There wasn't a time when Americans saw themselves as consumers first and community members second."

Go read the recent posts related to Mother's Chicken and then tell me how I should suck it up and continue to allow them to take me for granted. I don't think so. I work hard to earn my customers continued patronage and I certainly don't expect them to purchase from us out of some sense of civic duty. That's utter nonsense.

I hate shopping at Home Depot but there are no Lumber Yards left. I drive halfway across Austin to shop at an expensive real hardware store near the University because they are quality and local. I bought some cheap clothes for my kids fifteen years ago at WalMart and a twenty five dollar vacuum cleaner last year. Both were temporary lapses in judgement and I was regretting my purchases before I left the store. I'll never do that again. It's like eating at Applebee's, oh yuch.

Andrew, first let me say, I hope Mother's recovers. I've had some fine meals there. But honestly, my last visit was a disappointment.

That said, nobody is asking you to visit a story JUST BECAUSE it's local -- nobody has ever done that. The point is, as always, when given competing choices, choose local first. Price shouldn't always be the first consideration -- but then, the big boxes don't always have the lowest prices (contrary to the marketing myths they try to build).

If if your Mother's remark indicates that service and quality is important to you, why would you ever step into Wal-Mart?

I've never had any service or product quality issues at Wal-Mart from the products I purchase there, ever. No one has yet to tell me what the difference is between the Oscar Mayer hotdogs or Upstate Farms milk you buy there vs at any local mom & pop corner store, other than it being half the price. I have clothes from there that are more than five years old, seem to be holding together just fine. Our kids bikes outlasted their childhood.

I also spend plenty of money with the local merchants, been doing it long before you came along and smacked us all over the head about it on a weekly basis as a matter of fact. I can tell you though that two of the worst customer service experiences I've ever had have been with some of those very same local merchants. Like I posted previously, they need to earn my business.

Howard i don't understand what local business is hurt by those evil stores in the town of Batavia..The local resturants get most of the food business.If we need something musical we go to Roxy's.If its Jewelry its local.If what you need isn't offered by some local business what do you do..
Andrew made a great point about local..Mothers Chicken service sucked..so why go back..I know the local merchants are the ones who sponsor your site and maybe thats why you take such a hard line..

There are alot of Main Street stores in other towns that do fine..If you have what people want they will come..Batavia's Main Street is taken up by a Mall..Main Streets the thrive don't have a Mall in the center of it..

Howard is not taking a hard line, he likes Batavia and doesn't want so see it become one, not so big, shopping center. The truth is he cares about Batavia. The big box stores don't. If Batavia is not turning a profit for them, after they drive other businesses out of business, they will abandon you with no remorse. Not to mention the pay and working conditions of their lowball suppliers in Third World Countries.

Howard does, "smack us over the head with this" way too frequently.

There have been “box stores” for decades. Western Auto, Grants. Woolworths, Sears, A& P market, etc. They were all chain stores. The main thing that has changed is the larger size and location where the stores are now.

People don’t want to go to stores that have more than one floor. They want free parking and lots of it. Places like Batavia held on to parking meters too long.

And they like one stop shopping. Stores like Wal Mart, K Mart and Target have a photo shop, pharmacy and some times groceries. They open earlier than downtown stores and actually stay open past 5 PM. They are open 7 days a week. People like that.

George makes the exact point that needs to be made: For the big boxes, Batavia is just $$$ on a map. When the economic trends change, Batavia will be just another soiled diaper.

And if I smack you over the head, it's only because for many and varied reasons I've decided I like it here and I want to stay. Yes, I want to make a living here, but if I were willing to move to any number of places in the country, I could make a lot more money than I honestly project that I'll ever be able to make with The Batavian. I like what I'm doing, I like where I live, and I've decided that my place is with the local businesses struggling to survive against the onslaught of government-aided giant chains.

And if I keep smacking you over the head with it it's because the critics of the line of thinking I've taken provide me with so much fodder. They keep tossing me softballs. I've yet to find any response to this line of thinking that out weighs all the benefits of supporting your local community and avoiding the big boxes as much as possible.

John, the chains you mention were not the big boxes of the day. None of them ever obtained more than 2 percent of the retail market (and the only one that did, you don't mention, was A&P), none of them had the pricing power that Wal-Mart does (which has 10 percent of the retail market) and none of them ever got the kind of tax subsidies the big boxes do. Back in the day when A&P and Woolworth and Sears were building their chains, there was a lot of anti-chain sentiment, but A&P crushed that line of thinking with a line of marketing to people that started this drift toward people no longer thinking of themselves as citizens in a community, but consumers first. That marketing campaign had a profound impact on how people viewed chains and how anti-trust law was interpreted up to that point. There's just no comparison between the chains of decades ago and the big box stores of today.

What continues to amazing me is how all of my critics on this point are self-identified conservatives, and they're defending stores that are among the biggest beneficiaries of corporate socialism in the history of America. None of the critics are willing to address the fact that Wal-Mart has only been able to grow its empire to what it is today because of the billions and billions it has received in tax payer subsidies. I don't see how any conservative can find that justifiable.

It might not be “justifiable”. But government entities gave them the tax break to bring in even more money, usually in additional sales taxes. Nation wide, it must work because it is done so often.

I live on the east side of the city. Except for Aldi’s, I don’t have a lot of choices. I bought a paint sprayer at Sherwin Williams, because they had the best product for the best price. I buy pool supplies at Denny’s Pool World for the same reason. Snow blower, it came from Batavia Cycle Center, again for the same reason.

But if I need some small tool, a quart of oil, a T shirt, sandals, a DVD, a prescription filled, or one of a hundred other things, then it’s a “box store”. They almost always have what I need and at a low price, which I want. Of the three box stores here, I happen to like Wal Mart better than Target or K Mart.

As for taxes, I remember when K Mart left the City for the Town of Batavia. It was reported that when they opened up, they saved $200,000/year in all sort of taxes. I don’t know if that was true, but I bet it was not far off.

BTW, Andrew, I'll tell you a little story -- back in 1996, I disparately needed a better paying job and I landed a job interview with a company in Ventura, California. Up until that time, I had never set foot in Wal-Mart. Honestly, until then, I was anti-Wal-Mart without ever having studied the issue.

My future employer put us up in the Pierpont Hotel, the nicest hotel in Ventura. My future boss and I were scheduled to meet at 8 a.m. for breakfast. I had a brand new blue suit, a tie, a belt and .... no black shoes! I woke up at 6 a.m. with that startling realization. I left my black dress shoes in San Diego.

I called the front desk and asked if a bell captain might be able to help -- "No," I was told, "but Wal-Mart is open." I rushed to Oxnard, found the Wal-Mart and bought a pair of black dress shoes for something like $10.

I got the job and Billie and I became loyal Wal-Mart customers for the entire 11 years we lived in Venutra.

I was a die-hard fan -- man, this is capitalism, and defended Wal-Mart along those lines.

So I've been to Wal-Mart many, many, many times ... and you know what, I've never gotten good service. To me, good service isn't just a smile at the check out counter. It's seeing if you need help, noticing especially when you seem to be looking for something you can't find, or having product knowledge to help you make a buying decision. I've never, over dozens and dozens of visits to Wal-Mart, gotten that kind of service.

The Wal-Mart in-store model is as efficient as it's supply chain -- the whole idea is to shuffle consumers (not people, Wal-Mart never sees us or its employees as people) in and out of the store as quickly as possible -- god forbid you would actually need to ask a question of a clerk. That isn't efficient nor cost effective for Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart would never hire anybody with any real product knowledge. They might actually take time, during their "full-time" 34-hours per week, to talk with customers.

So I'm not buying that you've ever received good customer service from Wal-Mart. Customer service is just not part of their business model, unless you count the propaganda of their "greeters."

John, the notion that Wal-Mart and other big boxes are a revenue-plus has been shown many times to be false. In community after community, where Wal-Mart has displaced small businesses, real-dollar tax revenue has gone down, real wages have gone down, and community-service expenses (such as law enforcement and infrastructure) has gone up. In communities where the tax giveaways have bee granted, they just simply didn't know or haven't looked at the studies. Wal-Mart can't get build stores where local leaders have taken the time to truly understand the economics of the issue.

I've been going to the Wal-Mart in Batavia for some time now and you know what, stuff is pretty much in the same place all the time. I don't need anyone to show me where such and such item is, because I know. On the few occasions I've asked an associate a question I got a smile and an answer. What else should I expect, a complimentary mint?

When I spend a grand or more on a piece of jewelry for my wife at Valle's I get all the hand-holding I could possibly want but when I'm stocking up on picnic supplies at the Walzmart for a cook-out for my employees, I don't need a personal shopper to escort me around the store. As far as conversations go, I have them with the cashiers as I'm checking out all the time. A Supervisor has never come over and insisted we stopped chatting as my order was being processed. This past Sunday there was even the BSA Troop from Elba out front having a hotdog sale as a fundraiser. They're there pretty regularly in fact which seems odd considering Wal-Mart supposedly does nothing for the local community.

There's nothing, Andrew, in your description of shopping at Wal-Mart that I find the least bit virtuous or worth the trade off for the damage Wal-Mart does to communities.

If the corporate socialism that has made Wal-Mart what is is is OK with you, then what business is it of mine, but I'll continue to put the local community first.

Oh, and the local Wal-Mart manager really had to dig deep to let an Elba BSA troop sell hot dogs. You're right, it's so magnanimous. I bet the request for the permission request for that one traveled all they way to Bentonville.

As I posted, the troop is out front there pretty regularly, as are many other Not for Profits, so I would imagine they are successful in their endeavors otherwise why keep coming back? They could set up in front of any one of several local businesses in Elba, could they not?

And Andrew, your point about the BSA troop is a red herring and completely misrepresenting anything I've ever said. Last year Wal-Mart gave $300 million to various charities, making it the largest single-source contributor to charities in the world. That's beside the point -- the contributions of local businesses in monetary, in-kind and volunteer contributions far dwarfs anything Wal-Mart does on a global scale. What you're doing with such red herrings is really evading the issue. Wal-Mart is demonstratively and factually, unarguably a net drain on local communities. It's such a ridiculously obvious and simple argument to make, I'm surprised the clear point hasn't sunk in yet.

Further, if not for the big boxes, there would likely be a more vibrant business community in Elba quite a bit more capable of supporting a local BSA troop than requiring it to sell hot dogs in front of Wal-Mart.

What's to evade? I, like lots of other people around here, like shopping at Wal-Mart. You on the other hand think it is one of the signs of the Apocalypse.

Everyone needs a cause Howard - glad you found yours. Should we expect to see you out front marching back and forth with a sandwich board anytime soon?

How much more sales tax revenue does the Town of Batavia receive for having these stores in their limits?

If that offsets the tax breaks given to them, then the Town is getting a net increase and the citizens are benefited in two ways. They have a nice convenient store and the town has more tax money that many out-of-towners put in their coffers while will help to keep their property taxes from rising.

The town realizes no direct sales tax benefit. In Genesee County, all sales tax is pooled to the county and then equally redistributed to the towns. The City gets 16 percent of the entire country sales tax pie.

But it's rare for big box stores to give a community an overall net sales tax gain. The retail pie is only so big, so dollars that go to big boxes come from locally owned businesses, offsetting the sales tax once generated by those businesses, and if those companies close their doors, there is also decrease in the property tax value and revenue of those locations. (I put this in general terms of course, because I know of no specific study as to the sales tax gain or loss associated specifically to Genesee County and its big box stores. It's not clear from my discussions with various officials on the topic -- nobody is attributing the recent positive sales tax picture in the county to the addition, say, of Target, though I've asked that question.)

I think it would be easy for someone with time to find out. Its public record what the tax break is and then look up the sales tax paid by the store and then what percentage does the Town of Batavia get.

Sales tax paid by a specific store is not public record. It's considered a trade secret (from sales tax, you could calculate a store's specific revenue)(Trade secrets when obtained by a government agency are specifically exempted from disclosure under New York's Freedom of Information Law (FOIL)). I don't believe even the county treasurer has that information. Only Albany.

Ok how much more money did the Town of Batavia recieve in sales tax revenue the 1st year Walmart was open for 365 days vs the last year that Walmart wasn't in business yet.

Granted its not as accurate but it could be telling.

Currently, I'm shopping for:
Clothes line
water bottles
an inexpensive cutting board
2 wash basins
container covers (they look like mini shower caps)
cast iron frying pan
griddle
2 coolers
bug repellant
alcohol based hand wash
Acetiminophen
Ibuprofen
Polysporin
Aloe vera
liguid bandaids
and several other items.
Yes, it would be nice to shop locally. But I'll end up in a big box store because I can do it all at once.
I can do comparison shopping and determine where I will get the biggest bang for my buck, but most likely I can get whatever I need in two stops...a big box store and the dollar store.
Howard, I appreciate your point of view and understand that we'd be better off with a bustling Main St. with stores we could patronize. There were many of us who fought a losing fight to keep a vibrant Main St to no avail. Each store helped to attract business for the others. One could walk the length of the business district and find everything on my list. Those days are gone.
It isn't just the big box stores that are to blame, but a short sighted and greedy group of people who were only thinking of lining their pockets that killed our Main St.
They certainly weren't thinking with civic pride in mind when they demolished our business district. These were local merchants who had no concern for the consumer first.
They opened the door that attracted the big box stores.
With nowhere else to shop, the people flocked to them.

Right on Bea.........

Howard,
you quote a lot of studies, statistics and research in your arguments against WalMart, but you must remember..."there is no such thing as objective facts. All facts gain meaning by context, and which context to apply is always a subjective decision by the reporter of the facts.

Whether some of the sources are partisan or not are immaterial, however, to judging the validity of the opinion and facts offered. It's up to the intelligent reader to weigh both the source and the context."

I can't remember who said that? Oh yeah, it was you. Sorry, I could not resist that one.

What about On-Line shopping?

I'm sure many people point and click their shopping from out of state. Where's our tax revenue there? [At least my neighbor, the UPS guy, gets some work delivering our packages.]

So then, should Batavia ban the internet?

Oh wait... then we wouldn't get The Batavian...

Howard, essentially, you're right. I miss the "old times" too.

But the times they are a changin'. There's gonna be box stores, there's gonna be the internet, we have to coalesce with new technology, new ideas, and new marketing. There's still commerce to be had in this brave new world, including small business. Each person in his or her own most fundamental way is a small business.

I most certainly support local, small business whenever I can. Heck, I prefer a barter between friends to a currency exchange any day. Pretty tough to tax that!

Ahhh, but the fur pelts only go so far these days.

With ingenuity, ambition, and the mother of invention herself, necessity, small business can succeed.

Jeff, your comment seems to assume some sort of "you must agree with me attitude." I don't think I've ever required that of people. People don't have to agree with me, but neither need I agree with them and I will continue to espouse this position because it's part of what motivates me to run The Batavian.

Scott, this isn't about missing the old times. It's about doing what's best for our communities, which means what's best for democracy in America. Not everything that gets labels as "progress" is beneficial. The Mall was built in the name of progress and look how that worked out. And just because things changed, doesn't mean things can't be changed back. As a metaphor, I remember one time telling my mom when I was in high school, "I want to put together a band and play music just like Buddy Holly and Eddie Cochran." And she said, "You can't turn back the clock. Those times are over." Well, a few years a later, along comes the Stray Cats, and ever since the music world has been full of revival groups from everything from rockabilly to jump blues to hillbilly string bands. If people really believe something from the past was better, and enough people believe it, there's no reason there can't be a rebirth. There was a time when people thought of themselves as citizens, community members and working people before they thought of themselves as consumers. If those of us who believe that it is a virtue keep making the case along those lines, maybe there will be a revival in that kind of thinking.

Maybe I'm tilting at windmills, but I'd rather tilt than surrender.

As for the ecommerce on the Internet, that's a whole other discussion.

As I've said before and I'll say it again because apparently nobody is paying attention when I say this: This is all about making informed decisions. I don't see why that's a hard concept to grasp.

Howard it isn't a hard concept to follow. There is more to the Batavia story than one or two big stores came to the area and, like magic, all the stores in Batavia folded.
The businesses forced out of downtown Batavia were not on the brink of failure. They were well established and would still be thriving had it not been for those civic minded people who saw dollar in their pockets as their version of community progress. The shops and offices were forced out of their buildings to make way for parking lots! There was no place for them on Main St.
Yes, a city can come back...but not without people with the know how and fortitude to market Batavia and encourage local people as well as outside interests to take the risk.
The question still remains, "What is Batavia?".
Are we still a bedroom town for the two major cities?
Are we an agricultural center with a rich history?
Are we a modern, clean, well lit, city with good schools; quiet neighborhoods; and an above average workforce?
Are we a city that is willing to give tax breaks and other concessions to make sure that new people have a fighting chance?
You can't market Batavia until you know the personality of the city. That key has yet to be unlocked.

Nobody is talking about marketing Batavia, Bea. And the urban renewal issue is a whole other issue. None of that is really relavant to the idea that when you have a chance to make a choice, make an informed decision -- and the informed localist will do all he or she can to avoid the big box stores. It's really a very simple proposition. Even within the structure of the former national chain that enabled me to launch The Batavian, there was a strong localist philosphy behind the plan and strategy. Loalism about trying to find the right marketing message -- it's about putting community first, it's about fighting against multinational corporations and an imperial government in order to improve the quality life for the residents of the community where you live. Think Locally. Act Locally. Maybe I should have made that the motto of The Batavian.

You believe in the pentaverate, don't you Howard. I happen to like the Colonel's chicken.

What can I say but, "WTF?" And that's even after looking up what the hell "pentaverate" means. Geez, Andrew, are you just trying to be a troll.

I'm reminded that your tone hasn't changed since your first post on the site in January when you tried to claim that The Batavian had no advertising and implication that no business would advertise on The Batavian (I believe we had four advertisers at the time, which wasn't bad for a totally new web site that had no prior place in the community, and was more than the Daily online had at the time).

You wrote, "My point was if this site was set up to be a news service, run as a business, it is failing in that regard, in my opinion. I believe that the lack of advertising and difficulties the reporters are facing getting sourced stories supports that view."

Of course, now we have 44 advertisers (another signed on today), which is still more than signed by the Daily online, and direct access to leaders at every level of government. A large measure of our continued and still growing success is attributable to our local dedication.

You may not care about your local community, but most people do, and none of your red herring posts are going to detract us from that mission. Nor am I going to give in to your attempts to obfuscate the clear meaning of what I write.

Jeez Louise Howard, it was a joke. I take you've never seen the movie. The Stuart MacKenzie character portrayed by Mike Meyers is absolutely hilarious.

You can stop lecturing me about how much or little I must care about my local community as well. Unlike you, I've lived here my entire life, raised a family, and run a business, right here, in the very same place for close to 30 years.

Never heard of it. I don't get out much.

And I've been involved in local communities wherever I've lived for close to 30 years. I've never done much else, in one form or another.

Buddy Holly invented punk rock. Way ahead of his time.

Great sounding Fender guitar there.

A lot like my Fender American Stratocaster that I bought from Rose, at Roxy's Music Store right here in Batavia, N.Y. nearly twenty years ago. Been pickin' and a grinnin' on Roxy's gear since I was fourteen.

BUT! My first guitar came from Sears. [Back when it was only a catalog store in Batavia.] That darned, haunting, Christmas wishbook had a spell on me. Mom finally caved and under the tree was a Harmony guitar.

A few years later I could drive, and pretty much ever since then, have frequented Roxy's music for my music needs. Great people, and they know my name.

..and for Sears, they don't even have a tower anymore, it's becoming the Willis Tower, after some London Insurance broker company...

And I dig Rockabilly!